Toto Wolff accused of leaking/receiving confidential information

[ValeVida46]

The FIA neither overreached, nor have they lied at any point in this entire debacle.

I refer to my post a bit further up detailing why some people mistakingly believed the FIA lied, and that this was actually the result of bad media reporting:

For example, a lot of people I've seen debating this, incorrectly believe that the FIA has said that they started this investigation because a team had complained, and because every team then put out a statement saying they hadn't complained, people now assume the FIA has been lying. In reality the FIA never said that. What they said was that they were "aware of media speculation". So again, bad media coverage and gullible people is a big part of this.

The FIA did their job. They made an inquiry (not a full blown investigation) to FOM regarding their procedures for safeguarding information. Was satisfied with the answer they got. Closed the case.

And make no mistake here, the Wolff couple was indeed a victim of slander. But the FIA isn't the culprit here. Them trying to blow it up in the face of the FIA, is just them trying to capitalize on the situation. I think that's actually the unprofessional part here. If they must, they should go after BusinessF1 - not the FIA for doing exactly what they're supposed to do.

That's not how this works. Referring to yourself as reference does not validate the reference.

Initiating any investigation based on media speculation is overreach. There is no 2 ways about it, the FIA initated an investigation that fell foul of FIA's own ethical principles.

Who can make a complaint/refer an alleged breach of the FIA's ethical principles
 FIA Members
 officers, members, or licence-holders of FIA Members
 officials, organisers, drivers, competitors and licence-holders

You may note that media speculation is absent.
Here's a link to familiarise yourself with.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... cess).pdf

If you are going to conduct investigations based on what media speculation is throwing around, all a team has to do is spin a yarn in the Sun or Mail and bingo...FIA MUST investigate.
As I have shown from the FIA's own standard, they cannot do so based on media whims, as they have done here.
MBS initiated this, and it's no surprise he wont be in the limelight at the FIA gala tonight as it was an embarrassment of epic proportions.

[dans79]

What Fiasco? They did what they're supposed to do. If they didn't, many people would consider that negligent.

not saying anything to the individuals in question doesn't do them any favors!

https://theathletic.com/5120959/2023/12 ... sie-wolff/
```
A couple of curious things stand out from this short-lived drama. For one, both F1 and Mercedes issued statements saying the FIA publicly announced its investigation without informing either of them beforehand.
```

[mwillems]

The FIA neither overreached, nor have they lied at any point in this entire debacle.

I refer to my post a bit further up detailing why some people mistakingly believed the FIA lied, and that this was actually the result of bad media reporting:

For example, a lot of people I've seen debating this, incorrectly believe that the FIA has said that they started this investigation because a team had complained, and because every team then put out a statement saying they hadn't complained, people now assume the FIA has been lying. In reality the FIA never said that. What they said was that they were "aware of media speculation". So again, bad media coverage and gullible people is a big part of this.

The FIA did their job. They made an inquiry (not a full blown investigation) to FOM regarding their procedures for safeguarding information. Was satisfied with the answer they got. Closed the case.

And make no mistake here, the Wolff couple was indeed a victim of slander. But the FIA isn't the culprit here. Them trying to blow it up in the face of the FIA, is just them trying to capitalize on the situation. I think that's actually the unprofessional part here. If they must, they should go after BusinessF1 - not the FIA for doing exactly what they're supposed to do.

That's not how this works. Referring to yourself as reference does not validate the reference.

Initiating any investigation based on media speculation is overreach. There is no 2 ways about it, the FIA initated an investigation that fell foul of FIA's own ethical principles.

Who can make a complaint/refer an alleged breach of the FIA's ethical principles
 FIA Members
 officers, members, or licence-holders of FIA Members
 officials, organisers, drivers, competitors and licence-holders

You may note that media speculation is absent.
Here's a link to familiarise yourself with.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... cess).pdf

If you are going to conduct investigations based on what media speculation is throwing around, all a team has to do is spin a yarn in the Sun or Mail and bingo...FIA MUST investigate.
As I have shown from the FIA's own standard, they cannot do so based on media whims, as they have done here.
MBS initiated this, and it's no surprise he wont be in the limelight at the FIA gala tonight as it was an embarrassment of epic proportions.

Anyone within the FIA can read that article and refer it as an alleged breach.

And if you want to do those involved a favour to make everything go away nice and quickly then the way to do it is to open a case and close it saying in essence that it is rubbish. We looked at it and there is nothing there.

So I'm not sure how they breached their own ethics or how this means they must investigate everything in the papers. Whether the FIA were trying to do things the right way or just being clowns is pure speculation at this point but what is clear is that if the FIA were trying to put this to bed quickly, they did it without communicating it to anyone and without ensuring that it was clear they were just looking as a precaution and that there was no suggestion of wrong doing as of yet, to protect those parties involved.

[dans79]

yet mohttps://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the-lingerin ... /10556219/

Perhaps the most baffling aspect of the whole sorry affair is why the FIA felt the need to go so public that its compliance department was looking into the situation.

Such a statement would normally only come if there was strong evidence to suggest that a rules breach had taken place and there was a case to be answered.

Normally such situations are expected to be dealt with behind closed doors – even in private phone calls between the FIA and individuals involved – before there is any hint of it reaching the public domain.

So, the FIA's decision to issue its statement, before even Mercedes, the Wolffs and FOM knew anything about it, remains quite difficult to understand.

[taperoo2k]

A rather sharp climb down from the FIA there. I'd assume some strongly worded letters from lawyers were sent to the FIA.

What lawyers? FIA is judge, jury and executioner in this case. IIRC, you can't bring an action against the FIA in a regular court of law.

Toto's lawyers of course -
And now a statement from Toto Wolff: "We are in active legal exchange with the FIA. We await full transparency about what took place and why, and have expressly reserved all legal rights." Won't comment now but "will certainly address the matter in due course."
https://x.com/andrewbensonf1/status/173 ... 12568?s=20

[mwillems]

yet mohttps://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the-lingerin ... /10556219/

Perhaps the most baffling aspect of the whole sorry affair is why the FIA felt the need to go so public that its compliance department was looking into the situation.

Such a statement would normally only come if there was strong evidence to suggest that a rules breach had taken place and there was a case to be answered.

Normally such situations are expected to be dealt with behind closed doors – even in private phone calls between the FIA and individuals involved – before there is any hint of it reaching the public domain.

So, the FIA's decision to issue its statement, before even Mercedes, the Wolffs and FOM knew anything about it, remains quite difficult to understand.

It is at best insensitive and belligerent and at worst an extension of a baseless personal attack. The Wolffs intend to try to find out which.

We know that the FIA has become more autocratic and unilateral as their interpretation of how a governing body acts. And at times rather dim witted. So I reserve my judgement on whether this was a poorly executed and poorly communicated effort to diffuse, or wether it is something more, but they certainly need to explain themselves.

[TFSA]

That's not how this works. Referring to yourself as reference does not validate the reference.

I referred to my post because it looked like you might have overlooked it. That happens - i sometimes overlook posts as well.

Initiating any investigation based on media speculation is overreach. There is no 2 ways about it, the FIA initated an investigation that fell foul of FIA's own ethical principles.

Who can make a complaint/refer an alleged breach of the FIA's ethical principles
 FIA Members
 officers, members, or licence-holders of FIA Members
 officials, organisers, drivers, competitors and licence-holders

You may note that media speculation is absent.

Here's a link to familiarise yourself with.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... cess).pdf

You may note the start of the document in question, which - in it's very first section - states the following:

These Guidelines do not amend the FIA Statutes or the Code in any way, nor do they limit the discretion of the Ethics Committee. The FIA Ethics Committee reserves the right to amend these Guidelines at any time. The purpose of these Guidelines is to explain how the Ethics Committee applies these rules in practice. They are published on the FIA website.

These are guidelines, and as stated, they do not limit the ethical commitees discretion in any way. It's just like the overtaking guidelines: They are not a rule of law, and the Ethics committee has the ultimate discretion at the end of the day, including taking up their own investigations.

And as mwillems notes, anyone inside the FIA can read the media and refer a potential case.

If you are going to conduct investigations based on what media speculation is throwing around, all a team has to do is spin a yarn in the Sun or Mail and bingo...FIA MUST investigate.
As I have shown from the FIA's own standard, they cannot do so based on media whims, as they have done here.
MBS initiated this, and it's no surprise he wont be in the limelight at the FIA gala tonight as it was an embarrassment of epic proportions.

You didn't show that. Rather, you misinterpreted the document you read.

What some people don't seem to understand is that an investigation is NOT an accusation. The point of an investigation is to determine what is going on, if anything at all, and gather evidence (before it disappears), if any even exists.

Therefore, it's common for investigations to be conducted even on slight suspicions, as long as the tools used in the investigation isn't disproportional (for example, in a police investigation, you need more than slight suspicions to get warrants for example). In this case, the FIA didn't use any disproportional tools. They contacted the FOM and requested they clarify their procedures for securing confidential information. The FOM responded, the FIA reviewed it and determined it was sufficent.

Now imagine the alternative scenario: Imagine if the FIA had decided not to investigate this (or not announce it). The media would then be filled with stories about the FIA not taking action, and anti-Mercedes people would still be repeating the story that Suzie should be fired from FOM, or Toto was getting secret info (they probably still will, but likely not to the same degree), and the teams might not have issued their statements. That's not exactly doing the Wolffs any favors either. In this case, we're dealing with a media story that got pretty big. Even if the allegations were very loose at best, NOT investigating it would have caused speculation that would not be to the benefit of the Wolffs either.

We need to recognize that the cause of all of this lies with the publication that caused all of this, and - FIA investigation or not - that the Wolffs were always going to suffer for this in one way or another.

Also, one final thing regarding how in investigations are done...

not saying anything to the individuals in question doesn't do them any favors!

...If you're the subject of the investigation, you're not entitled to be told. That might compromise an investigation, allow subjects to collude etc. That's why it's rarely done. It's not standard practice.

Now, obviously neither Toto nor Suzie deserved this obvious slander article that was initially written about them, and which turned out to be bollocks. In fact, I'm a little ashamed that i posted it in the first place, but i also kinda knew ahead of time that this would blow up.

But they've shot themselves massively in the foot the way they handled it. After the article was published, the FIA had pretty much no choice but to investigate, otherwise they would find themself under criticism for inaction. And ripping into the FIA for that is... well, simply plain d*mb. If you want to go to war with the FIA, this is not the way to do it.

[dans79]

And ripping into the FIA for that is... well, simply plain d*mb. If you want to go to war with the FIA, this is not the way to do it.

They aren't after war, imo they are after blood, two distinctly different things.

A famous and ground breaking TV seen from the 80's comes to mind.

Ivan did you see the sunrise this morning?

[TFSA]

And ripping into the FIA for that is... well, simply plain d*mb. If you want to go to war with the FIA, this is not the way to do it.

They aren't after war, imo they are after blood, two distinctly different things.

And there's an obvious target: BusinessF1. They were the ones who alleged that team principles were dissatisfied with Suzie being in her position, and that information was exchanged. They have 3 previous lawsuits they've lost for slander. This would just be the 4th one.

But that doesn't seem to be who they are targeting here. At least not initially. It seems more like Mercedes/Suzie/Toto wants concessions from the FIA first, and then maybe sue BusinessF1 later.

And, while i respect that they've been put in a difficult position regarding this whole debacle, i don't respect that approach, nor the statements they've made (and Hamilton has made today, which was even worse). Lamenting a governing body for doing the work they're supposed to do really isn't really the way to go.

Again, recognize the real villain.

[dans79]

Again, recognize the real villain.

Imo, that's MBS, since day one he has waged "war" against LM, the teams, and certain members of the paddock. Now it seems he is very much the one with a target on his back, and again imo he has earned it!

[ThijsMuis]

That's not how this works. Referring to yourself as reference does not validate the reference.

I referred to my post because it looked like you might have overlooked it. That happens - i sometimes overlook posts as well.

Initiating any investigation based on media speculation is overreach. There is no 2 ways about it, the FIA initated an investigation that fell foul of FIA's own ethical principles.

Who can make a complaint/refer an alleged breach of the FIA's ethical principles
 FIA Members
 officers, members, or licence-holders of FIA Members
 officials, organisers, drivers, competitors and licence-holders

You may note that media speculation is absent.

Here's a link to familiarise yourself with.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... cess).pdf

You may note the start of the document in question, which - in it's very first section - states the following:

These Guidelines do not amend the FIA Statutes or the Code in any way, nor do they limit the discretion of the Ethics Committee. The FIA Ethics Committee reserves the right to amend these Guidelines at any time. The purpose of these Guidelines is to explain how the Ethics Committee applies these rules in practice. They are published on the FIA website.

These are guidelines, and as stated, they do not limit the ethical commitees discretion in any way. It's just like the overtaking guidelines: They are not a rule of law, and the Ethics committee has the ultimate discretion at the end of the day, including taking up their own investigations.

And as mwillems notes, anyone inside the FIA can read the media and refer a potential case.

If you are going to conduct investigations based on what media speculation is throwing around, all a team has to do is spin a yarn in the Sun or Mail and bingo...FIA MUST investigate.
As I have shown from the FIA's own standard, they cannot do so based on media whims, as they have done here.
MBS initiated this, and it's no surprise he wont be in the limelight at the FIA gala tonight as it was an embarrassment of epic proportions.

You didn't show that. Rather, you misinterpreted the document you read.

What some people don't seem to understand is that an investigation is NOT an accusation. The point of an investigation is to determine what is going on, if anything at all, and gather evidence (before it disappears), if any even exists.

Therefore, it's common for investigations to be conducted even on slight suspicions, as long as the tools used in the investigation isn't disproportional (for example, in a police investigation, you need more than slight suspicions to get warrants for example). In this case, the FIA didn't use any disproportional tools. They contacted the FOM and requested they clarify their procedures for securing confidential information. The FOM responded, the FIA reviewed it and determined it was sufficent..

Using media stories to conduct investigations and lying to say it was teama that made conplaints.That's a huge problem.
That also fails Ethics code, doesn't matter if rules can be changed anytime as what's the point in having it if you make it up as you go?

Another big question, people is saying it's the papers fault. Where did the paper get the story from? FIA president would be my guess.

[TFSA]

Imo, that's MBS, since day one he has waged "war" against LM, the teams, and certain members of the paddock. Now it seems he is very much the one with a target on his back, and again imo he has earned it!

For what exactly? I get why he's generally not a popular figure, and there's been plenty of controversies. But just focusing on this case, can you specify exactly what he did wrong (beyond the FIA conducting the investigation they should be conducting at any rate, even if just briefly)?

That the FIA is at heads with the teams is not really an argument. As a governing body without a financial incentive, versus the teams and the FOM who both have a common financial incentive to get things their way, it's obvious that the teams and the FOM will butt heads with the FIA.

That doesn't put the teams nor the FOM in the right though, particularly because they have a large financial incentive. The split of F1 into two entities by the EU almost 25 years ago, was done exactly to prevent the financial incentives (back then mostly for FOCA) to dictate the sport. And if you want my recommendation, we don't want to go back to those times again. As inept as the FIA sometimes seems, the sport is better off in their hands than it is in the teams and the FOMs hands.

Using media stories to conduct investigations and lying to say it was teama that made conplaints.That's a huge problem.
That also fails Ethics code, doesn't matter if rules can be changed anytime as what's the point in having it if you make it up as you go?

Another big question, people is saying it's the papers fault. Where did the paper get the story from? FIA president would be my guess.

Rules aren't made up as they go. You just confuse rules and guidelines. And the guidelines even say that they don't compromise Ethics Committees discretion.

Also, please quit the wild speculations (bolded). We're here to argue the facts, not conspiracy theories. People taking wild guesses at people leaking information, doesn't do anything for the discussion.

[dans79]

That the FIA is at heads with the teams is not really an argument. As a governing body without a financial incentive, versus the teams and the FOM who both have a common financial incentive to get things their way, it's obvious that the teams and the FOM will butt heads with the FIA.

I'm not sure why you think the FIA has no financial incentive!

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-n ... /10433815/

According to the 2023 FIA Sporting Regulations, all teams are required to pay a flat rate of $617,687, plus a fee per point scored. That points fee has risen from $6,926 to $7,441 for the constructors' world champion and from $5,770 to $6,174 for the remaining nine teams.

The driver fees are not made public, but Motorsport.com has learned that for 2023 their points-based fee has been increased by nearly 30% from $1,623 to $2,100 per point scored.

Add the flat fee of $16,236 ($12,256 plus $3,980 for insurance) and the FIA is banking $26,699,573, a significant amount more cash from registration fees than before.

from last year. What's described/alluded to is generally called attempted extortion!
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/61367767

It's not just the drivers' noses that are being put out of joint by the FIA at the moment. Last month, Ben Sulayem refused to agree to plans to double the number of 'sprint' events next year to six.

The reason given publicly for this was that he wanted more time to study the impact of the plan on the FIA's race weekend resources.

Teams are briefing that in fact the reason is money - Ben Sulayem asked for more to be paid to the FIA in return for his agreement. Despite the fact that as the teams pay their entry fees based on the number of points they earn, and the number of points for sprints has been increased this year, they would get more money for more sprint races anyway.

This has angered the teams and bosses of commercial rights holder F1, and it has added to a range of issues that are causing dissatisfaction with the FIA's actions in recent months.

Insiders have told BBC Sport that senior F1 figures are actively questioning whether they need the FIA involved in the sport, and are looking at ways in which they could be removed from being so.

Much of the FIA's income comes from F1, but it spends a relatively small amount of it on the highest level of the sport. In other words, the FIA needs F1 much more than F1 needs the FIA. Or so at least some senior figures are saying.

Could the FIA end up being removed from any effective role in the running of its blue-riband category and be relegated to a largely ceremonial function?

[TFSA]

I'm not sure why you think the FIA has no financial incentive!

It's literally a non-profit organization.

Doesn't man it doesn't need money to run, including running its other than motorsports categories. But it doesn't have the same motivation as FOM or the teams, and even the financial motivations that it do have, are separate from that of the teams and FOM.

And no, what you link isn't extortion. It's called negotiation. If FOM wants to expand F1 with more sprint races etc. then it's only natural that the FIA not only needs to evaluate that, but also will require resources to make sure they can manage it.

It's literally BSMs job to try and maximize the FIAs ability to do what they do...

Also, the BBC article is obviously written by someone who doesn't understand the history of F1. FOM will not be able to pull away from the FIA. There's a reason they're split in the first place. It's pure nonsense.

[dans79]

Also, the BBC article is obviously written by someone who doesn't understand the history of F1.

In your opinion, and I have to say I don't agree.