Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

[ISLAMATRON]

Black flag him how? when? His tire fell off the same lap he came out of the pits, he never passed by the start finish line... how would he be black flagged then?

Trying to pawn it off on the stewards is absurd. Team fault no doubt, and if they had told Alonso I doubt they would have been dealt with so harshly, unfortunately the fans have to suffer for Renaults' stupidity.

They should let them run but deny any WCC points.

[andartop]

Black flag him how? when? His tire fell off the same lap he came out of the pits, he never passed by the start finish line... how would he be black flagged then?

Trying to pawn it off on the stewards is absurd. Team fault no doubt, and if they had told Alonso I doubt they would have been dealt with so harshly, unfortunately the fans have to suffer for Renaults' stupidity.

They should let them run but deny any WCC points.

Mea culpa. Black with orange circle.

[Ray]

Xpensive, Renault never told Alonso the wheel was loose even after he radioed them saying he thought he had a flat. That was after they sent the car out knowing full well the wheel wasn't even close to being on all the way. I would say that was much more dangerous than what happened with Brawn, even though I think they both deserve a penalty.

But you don't ban a team for that. You fine the heck out of them, but not ban them from a race.

I think the FIA is doing this on purpose to push Renault to quit F1 and I guess prove their point that car makers can leave the sport whenever they want.
/end conspiracy theory

I don't think I said they should be banned. I may have though. What I've said the whole time is if Renault deserve a penalty, then so do Brawn. Because in their case it almost killed someone. I agree with you on the fine thing.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Xpensive, Renault never told Alonso the wheel was loose even after he radioed them saying he thought he had a flat. That was after they sent the car out knowing full well the wheel wasn't even close to being on all the way. I would say that was much more dangerous than what happened with Brawn, even though I think they both deserve a penalty.

But you don't ban a team for that. You fine the heck out of them, but not ban them from a race.

I think the FIA is doing this on purpose to push Renault to quit F1 and I guess prove their point that car makers can leave the sport whenever they want.
/end conspiracy theory

I don't think I said they should be banned. I may have though. What I've said the whole time is if Renault deserve a penalty, then so do Brawn. Because in their case it almost killed someone. I agree with you on the fine thing.

*sigh* Have you read anything in this thread? The two cases are completely different. Renault deserve a penalty because they released a car that they knew was most likely going to lose a wheel, and they then failed to tell the driver even after he radioed in thinking he had a puncture! Its the face they didn't tell Alonso, if he had known his wheel wasn't fixed on properly he might have driven slower or even pulled over through common sense.

Brawn allowed their car to run in Qualy apparently knowing it had damage. From what I understand it had a rear suspension problem but no-one was aware of the nature of that problem and probably hadn't even had it back in to the garage to inspect it. It is very very rare for parts to be spat out as they were.

The difference is Renault allowed a car to run which they know was most likely going to lose a wheel on track. Brawn allowed a damaged car to run because they didn't now know it was going to fail so dramatically and distrubute debri all over the track.

The other question is was Renaults punishment fair? Probably not, but they got made an example out of.

[xpensive]

The Renault case still comes across like an unfortunate chain of human errors to me.

If they were truly aware that they screwed-up the wheel-change, why would they deliberately keep that information from their star driver and perhaps biggest asset?

Doesn't make much sense to me anyway?

The way I see things in the Brawn case, they failed to secure a vital non-changeable suspension part to the chassis, which to my mind is technical negligence.

[i70q7m7ghw]

The Renault case still comes across like an unfortunate chain of human errors to me.

If they were truly aware that they screwed-up the wheel-change, why would they deliberately keep that information from their star driver and perhaps biggest asset?

Doesn't make much sense to me anyway?

The way I see things in the Brawn case, they failed to secure a vital non-changeable suspension part to the chassis, which to my mind is technical negligence.

I do partly agree with you on the Renault thing, it does appear to be just a complete melt down in communication. Starting from when the lollipop man didn't seem to acknowledge a problem on the front right.

I'm really struggling with the Brawn thing, I won't believe anything about things not secured properly, knowingly sending a car out with a suspension hanging lose etc. etc. until I see a fully verified source.

My understanding is that the car was on track when a suspension problem was reported/suspected. The decision to bring the car in was not made as Barrichello was still not safe in to Q3 so he was attempting another flying lap. At some point on track the suspension the failed and parts of it where scattered across the track. No one in Brawn knew this was going to happen.

I don't know where all these theories about loose bolts etc. came from, but you have to provide a source before throwing serious allegations like that in to the ring.

[modbaraban]

I don't know where all these theories about loose bolts etc. came from, but you have to provide a source before throwing serious allegations like that in to the ring.

Barrichello underlined it was broken not undone.

Does anyone know when the decision on the Renault's appeal is due to be announced?

[xpensive]

For Diesel:
I agree, when reading my posting again, I realize using way to heavy xpressions, such as negligence, which it was clearly not if we are talking about something simply broken.

My only defence on the matter is that I behold the Renault race-ban totally inappropriate and was trying to make a relevant comparison, which failed miserably.

[WhiteBlue]

My only defence on the matter is that I behold the Renault race-ban totally inappropriate and was trying to make a relevant comparison, which failed miserably.

You also made the oil camparison in the other thread. I don't think you have ever answered my question to provide data on that.

[xpensive]

Why would I answer to you? I've been trying to be polite an civil with you without a grain of respect in return.

Just the same tirades, which I simply cannot even bother reading, on how you understand the world like nobody else.

And when I make an apology on a matter which is of no concern of yours, you try and take a cheap stab at me?

I didn't want to believe the stories told about you on other sites, but now I'm beginning to wonder who you really are?

[Richard]

Could a mod please put this thread out of its misery

[Ray]

*sigh* Have you read anything in this thread? The two cases are completely different.......

Brawn allowed their car to run in Qualy apparently knowing it had damage......
The difference is Renault allowed a car to run which they know was most likely going to lose a wheel on track. Brawn allowed a damaged car to run because they didn't now know it was going to fail so dramatically and distribute debris all over the track.

The other question is was Renaults punishment fair? Probably not, but they got made an example out of.

Yeah I have read what's in this thread. I'll say it again. Brawns' negligence damn near killed another competitor. YOU need to learn to read, I've posted time and again the link to an Autosport interview stating the situation at Brawn and what Rubens had to say about it. I suggest you read it again, or for the first time it seems. They knew something was wrong, and chose not to investigate it. I don't give a damn what they were doing, qualifying, race, or practice. I will not repeat this again, so thick skulls around here can figure it out on it their own. I guess their investors put too much money into their coffers for them to care what might happen.

I always thought people should be held accountable for their actions. Apparently many do not think that way, and that's a sad fact. Brawn should be held accountable for something coming off their car and hitting another competitor, regardless if they 'knew' what was going to happen. That's called negligence and you can get in trouble for it. This wasn't a 'freak' accident. It was caused by a failure in judgment.

[Ray]

Could a mod please put this thread out of its misery

Could you either add to the discussion or go away? If you don't want to read it there are thousands of other threads to entertain you.

[Richard]

Could you either add to the discussion or go away? If you don't want to read it there are thousands of other threads to entertain you.

I was referring to the level of personal abuse. For example "You need to learn to read"... "why the --- can't you..." ... "READ. You just might learn something. FFS."

It's rather tiresome.

To paraphrase whiteblue, some people need find a quiet corner.

As modbaraban said "This isn't going enywhere. Enough said."

[Ray]

Could you either add to the discussion or go away? If you don't want to read it there are thousands of other threads to entertain you.

I was referring to the level of personal abuse. For example "You need to learn to read"... "why the --- can't you..." ... "READ. You just might learn something. FFS."

It's rather tiresome.

To paraphrase whiteblue, some people need find a quiet corner.

As modbaraban said "This isn't going anywhere. Enough said."

Okay. Enjoy your stay at F1technical.