2024 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 21 - 23

[Xyz22]

It's clear that Max was running on a conservative hybrid map, not the engine in general. In fact, his speed in the straight follow the same pattern as Leclerc up to a specific point, then it stays the same or slowly going down like there was a hard cap (very low electric power)

Highly likely that he was losing around 0.1 / 0.13s per lap due to this.

Example:

[Vanja #66]

Reaching Speed Trap line at different rate and reaching actual Top Speed are two different things. ST line is most often conservative and cars always keep accelerating beyond it, so it's not a reliable reference

Speedtrap values track for comparisons between every team and Verstappen is the only outlier

Unless you can find some evidence in testing that corroborates the lack of correlation between ST and top speed?

The data you are using comes from the same source as f1-tempo traces. Feel free to check it out. I'd share some screenshots, but I'm on my phone right now and it's not an easy thing to navigate f1-tempo site on phone

[AR3-GP]

These traces reveal a few very interesting things about RB20 relative to the field. There's a misconception that Max was running highly detuned PU in his quasi-race-sims, but this is not the case. There's also an interesting thing happening in T12, but only in these high-fuel runs. I've compared early laps of C3 stints of these 5 drivers, since this is the best we got. Max and Alonso were always running to a delta and always started on same fuel, though Max had lower degradation and was overall faster. It does seem these runs did not start at 100kg of fuel. If Max did, he's got at least 7-8 tenths a lap over Ferrari and others in the race.

https://i.ibb.co/wWG11QC/2024-bahrain-day3.jpg

Max started C3 stint with top speed at 295kmh, ending usually around 297-298kmh. His C1/2 stints started at 297 and sometimes went up to 299kmh. No detuning there. Leclerc had a similar pattern, but started with 298-299kmh and ended stints up to 305kmh. Alonso and Piastri started a bit slower than Max, around 293kmh and also followed this same pattern. Albon beat them all and reached typically well above 300kmh all the time. All of these patterns were quite typical in races in 2023, RB was usually just a bit slower on top speed than Ferrari (no DRS), while Aston and McLaren were slower than RB. Williams was a rocket all the time.

Vanja why do you do this to me?

Verstappen's PU detune is clear and the level is very high:

I selected lap 20 of Leclerc's race sim (fresh hard tire) to lap 2 of Verstappen's second stint (also hard tire). So Verstappen would have roughly 85kg, and Leclerc roughtly 66kg of fuel (so this makes it look more partial to Leclerc if anything since Verstappen is heavier, but I will show you later that fuel weight doesn't have much impact on the straight line performance ).

Okay so the first plot, Lec vs Verstappen, big delta on the straights.





Now I show Verstappen on lap 34 vs himself on lap 47 where he has consumed roughly 22kg of fuel. The purpose is to illustrate the lack of impact that fuel load has on the straight line performance:




So basically you can see the massive difference in power being used from the first plot, and it's not because of fuel load differences.

[CouncilorIrissa]

Yeah, that's all due to PU modes. Unless RB built a RB6-level brick, which they did not

[Vanja #66]

Vanja why do you do this to me?

Verstappen's PU detune is clear and the level is very high:

Mate, I understand you want to try hard to make a point, but picking specific traces and omitting facts about them to make a point... Come on, you're better than that... We can't compare any stints from Leclerc and Max other than C3, since Max was running heavier than Leclerc in non-C3 stints. This has certain effect on things, does it not? That's some Red Card stuff, mate...

So let's instead also include actual historical data into equation. Here's Bahrain 2023 Race, Bahrain 2024 Test Day 3 and AD 2023 Race. The speed difference in 2023 Bahrain race is much higher than 2024 test, no? That's because Leclerc had a notably smaller rear wing. On other hand, AD 2023 race shows pretty much the same difference as Bahrain 2024 Test. You can check the lap numbers on traces and you'll see they are quite comparable. Other than typical difference for both cars due to alternating more or less harvesting in push/harvest laps, you won't find anything else. That's all from my side on this topic.

Bahrain 2023 Race



Bahrain 2024 Test Day 3



AD 2023 Race

[AR3-GP]

Vanja why do you do this to me?

Verstappen's PU detune is clear and the level is very high:

Mate, I understand you want to try hard to make a point, but picking specific traces and omitting facts about them to make a point... Come on, you're better than that... We can't compare any stints from Leclerc and Max other than C3, since Max was running heavier than Leclerc in non-C3 stints. This has certain effect on things, does it not? That's some Red Card stuff, mate...

I addressed this point by showing you that fuel loads don't make a difference, not on the order of a 20kg weight difference for a car that weights 800kg. You can reach this conclusion from first principles, but it's more easily illustrated by just looking at two laps of the same driver with a difference in fuel as I did. It's a weaker assumption if you compare a car with 100kg of fuel to one with 5kg, but it's actually a very good one for only 20kg difference.

In any case, you reach the same conclusion when you find Leclerc's lap where he is at 66kg (lap 20 of race sim), and then find Verstappen's lap where he is also at 66kg (lap 12 of any of the 3 stints).

[organic]

Rb had to detune hybrid in Bahrain 2023 race immediately aftet the race start as confirmed by wazari due to gearbox issue (that gearbox was unusable subsequently). So not reliable data unfortunately

[dialtone]

Vanja why do you do this to me?

Verstappen's PU detune is clear and the level is very high:

Mate, I understand you want to try hard to make a point, but picking specific traces and omitting facts about them to make a point... Come on, you're better than that... We can't compare any stints from Leclerc and Max other than C3, since Max was running heavier than Leclerc in non-C3 stints. This has certain effect on things, does it not? That's some Red Card stuff, mate...

I addressed this point by showing you that fuel loads don't make a difference, not on the order of a 20kg weight difference for a car that weights 800kg. You can reach this conclusion from first principles, but it's more easily illustrated by just looking at two laps of the same driver with a difference in fuel as I did. It's a bad assumption if you compare a car with 100kg of fuel to one with 5kg, but it's actually a very good one for only 20-30kg difference.

I remember when I said this (fuel load doesn’t impact top speed, when discussing the supposed 50hp or so lower engine power for Checo) for Miami race in 2022 and all hell came down on me.

At some point you have to pick a side.

EDIT: I’ll remind you folks that in that race Cecho had the same top speed down the straights despite supposedly having replaced an engine with pedals and chain.

[AMG.Tzan]

Vanja why do you do this to me?

Verstappen's PU detune is clear and the level is very high:

Mate, I understand you want to try hard to make a point, but picking specific traces and omitting facts about them to make a point... Come on, you're better than that... We can't compare any stints from Leclerc and Max other than C3, since Max was running heavier than Leclerc in non-C3 stints. This has certain effect on things, does it not? That's some Red Card stuff, mate...

I addressed this point by showing you that fuel loads don't make a difference, not on the order of a 20kg weight difference for a car that weights 800kg. You can reach this conclusion from first principles, but it's more easily illustrated by just looking at two laps of the same driver with a difference in fuel as I did. It's a weaker assumption if you compare a car with 100kg of fuel to one with 5kg, but it's actually a very good one for only 20kg difference.

In any case, you reach the same conclusion when you find Leclerc's lap where he is at 66kg (lap 20 of race sim), and then find Verstappen's lap where he is also at 66kg (lap 12 of any of the 3 stints).

So mass (fuel burning off) doesn't play a role in the top speed a car can achieve at a certain length? It surely plays a role in its acceleration, which then plays a role at the speed trap it can achieve at a certain length, doesn't it?

A 700kg car will get to 300km/h faster than the same car will if it is 750kg, won't it?



ps. already feeling embarrassed if this is wrong

[dialtone]

Mate, I understand you want to try hard to make a point, but picking specific traces and omitting facts about them to make a point... Come on, you're better than that... We can't compare any stints from Leclerc and Max other than C3, since Max was running heavier than Leclerc in non-C3 stints. This has certain effect on things, does it not? That's some Red Card stuff, mate...

I addressed this point by showing you that fuel loads don't make a difference, not on the order of a 20kg weight difference for a car that weights 800kg. You can reach this conclusion from first principles, but it's more easily illustrated by just looking at two laps of the same driver with a difference in fuel as I did. It's a weaker assumption if you compare a car with 100kg of fuel to one with 5kg, but it's actually a very good one for only 20kg difference.

In any case, you reach the same conclusion when you find Leclerc's lap where he is at 66kg (lap 20 of race sim), and then find Verstappen's lap where he is also at 66kg (lap 12 of any of the 3 stints).

So mass (fuel burning off) doesn't play a role in the top speed a car can achieve at a certain length? It surely plays a role in its acceleration, which then plays a role at the speed trap it can achieve at a certain length, doesn't it?

A 700kg car will get to 300km/h faster than the same car will if it is 750kg, won't it?



ps. already feeling embarrassed if this is wrong

Yes it will obviously accelerate faster, Vanja’s point is that the main limiting factor is the aero setup of the car, which is absolutely right. A 100kg person and a 50kg person jumping off a plane will reach practically the same speed and stay there.

[Cs98]

Vanja why do you do this to me?

Verstappen's PU detune is clear and the level is very high:

Mate, I understand you want to try hard to make a point, but picking specific traces and omitting facts about them to make a point... Come on, you're better than that... We can't compare any stints from Leclerc and Max other than C3, since Max was running heavier than Leclerc in non-C3 stints. This has certain effect on things, does it not? That's some Red Card stuff, mate...

So let's instead also include actual historical data into equation. Here's Bahrain 2023 Race, Bahrain 2024 Test Day 3 and AD 2023 Race. The speed difference in 2023 Bahrain race is much higher than 2024 test, no? That's because Leclerc had a notably smaller rear wing. On other hand, AD 2023 race shows pretty much the same difference as Bahrain 2024 Test. You can check the lap numbers on traces and you'll see they are quite comparable. Other than typical difference for both cars due to alternating more or less harvesting in push/harvest laps, you won't find anything else. That's all from my side on this topic.

Bahrain 2023 Race

https://i.ibb.co/DD7xHTm/2023-bah.jpg

Bahrain 2024 Test Day 3

https://i.ibb.co/ss4QRtY/2024-bah.jpg

AD 2023 Race

https://i.ibb.co/Gtc2M2h/2023-abu.jpg

It's interesting you opt to go back 12 months for "historical data" (including a race where RB were nursing reliability issues) when the evidence that would have disproven your opinion was available from literally one day before in the test. Here's a random lap in the middle of Perez's race stint where he was doing roughly similar times to Max. Max's reference lap is the same as in your picture.

Every straight there is a significant difference. Based on the time delta Max was conservatively giving up 4-5 tenths just on the straights in this comparison, not counting traction zones. Honestly though, with an objective outlook a 5 year old could've figured out they were running de-tuned. But don't just take my word for it, here's Ferrari afficionado SmilexTech reporting from the pit-lane.

Verstappen had multiple runs with an estimated (by another team) weight of 85kg. The GPS data then indicates that the map used by Red Bull with Max was very low with a hybrid that pushed little

Edit: He also said this when asked about Ferrari's mapping.

rather truthful mapping because it was necessary to push on the tires to see their behavior

[AR3-GP]

Mate, I understand you want to try hard to make a point, but picking specific traces and omitting facts about them to make a point... Come on, you're better than that... We can't compare any stints from Leclerc and Max other than C3, since Max was running heavier than Leclerc in non-C3 stints. This has certain effect on things, does it not? That's some Red Card stuff, mate...

I addressed this point by showing you that fuel loads don't make a difference, not on the order of a 20kg weight difference for a car that weights 800kg. You can reach this conclusion from first principles, but it's more easily illustrated by just looking at two laps of the same driver with a difference in fuel as I did. It's a weaker assumption if you compare a car with 100kg of fuel to one with 5kg, but it's actually a very good one for only 20kg difference.

In any case, you reach the same conclusion when you find Leclerc's lap where he is at 66kg (lap 20 of race sim), and then find Verstappen's lap where he is also at 66kg (lap 12 of any of the 3 stints).

So mass (fuel burning off) doesn't play a role in the top speed a car can achieve at a certain length? It surely plays a role in its acceleration, which then plays a role at the speed trap it can achieve at a certain length, doesn't it?

A 700kg car will get to 300km/h faster than the same car will if it is 750kg, won't it?



ps. already feeling embarrassed if this is wrong

You are not wrong. Mathematically speaking, the acceleration is affected. F = ma so when m goes up, acceleration goes down. It just turns out that when you do the math, the difference is small compared to the impact of engine power differences. (i.e F1 car with 100kg of fuel is ~900kg so a 20kg fuel difference is only a 2.2% difference in mass, thus a 2.2% difference in acceleration value assuming the same engine. The actual difference in acceleration in the telemetry posted is much larger than this which shows that the speed difference is being dominated by power differences, not mass differences).

I don't know why Vanja is giving such a hard time on this. It's a fairly basic conclusion which was picked up on by some of the better journalist. When the time delta exhibits a big linear drift on the straights, it's because of PU settings.

[LM10]

An F1 car of the current generation with a drag coefficient of let’s say 1.0 would need about 80-90 hp extra to overcome the drag from 285 km/h to 295 km/h. That’s just an estimation so please correct me if I’m wrong. Assuming the top speed delta was purely down to horsepower difference, how likely is it that Max was that much down on power compared to Charles?

[AR3-GP]

An F1 car of the current generation with a drag coefficient of let’s say 1.0 would need about 80-90 hp extra to overcome the drag from 285 km/h to 295 km/h. That’s just an estimation so please correct me if I’m wrong. Assuming the top speed delta was purely down to horsepower difference, how likely is it that Max was that much down on power compared to Charles?

It's not all down to hp differences. It's possible that the Ferrari is slightly slipperier than the RB with the DRS closed. However, the bulk of the "damage" on the straights is being done across the entire speed range, not just the top end, so while there's some element of drag differences, there's also clearly a PU output difference that is visible.

Also, in the absence of ERS deployment or low deployment, that's potentially up to 120kw (160hp) missing. So that will also lead to significant differences in top speed.

[Cs98]

An F1 car of the current generation with a drag coefficient of let’s say 1.0 would need about 80-90 hp extra to overcome the drag from 285 km/h to 295 km/h. That’s just an estimation so please correct me if I’m wrong. Assuming the top speed delta was purely down to horsepower difference, how likely is it that Max was that much down on power compared to Charles?

You have 120kW of ERS that you can deploy fully or partially across the lap. The easiest way to de-tune your PU is just to limit your deployment slightly towards the end of the straight. It has a big difference on end of straight speed as can be easily seen in comparisons with the same car running de-tuned or normally.