Schumi comes back

[DaveKillens]

Well andertop, this is a volatile mixture. First off, we see a lot of newer fans who have only a few years watching Formula One, have declared themselves Shu fans for life, and have no problem loudly defending someone they know so very little about. Then we have Ferrari, who are being very active putting out press releases in an attempt to sway opinion. Who are they fooling? All it takes these days is to spend a few moments googling Ferrari and it's checkered history to learn what kind of outfit they really are.
Lastly, we have Michael Schumacher. The numbers don't lie, he is the most penalized and fined driver in Formula One history. Yea, he did re-write the record book and yes, he is a great driver. But his exploits sometimes were inappropriate, and that has made him a lightning rod for controversy and excessive emotion.
And wow, he hasn't even driven in anger yet.
Of course Michael Schumacher will drive as he always has, with his amazing racecraft, perseverance, and intelligence. But a driver can only be as good as his car. The current pace of Ferrari development has returned them towards the front, so if the stars align he may sneak in a win. But don't expect Schumacher to be 5 seconds a lap quicker than Kimi, and he won't lap the entire field in a win.

[Michiba]

So does this mean that he isn't going to be able test the F60 now that Williams have vetoed?

And how come no one is pointing out the hypocrisy of Williams arguing the spirit of the rules? Weren't they one of the original users of the DDD?

[Rob W]

Ferrari really show that they are the kings of PR facepalm. Their statement referring to Williams is a joke and a PR blunder.

Comparing this scenario to Williams' interpretation of the rules when coming up with their DDD is comparing apples with cats. One is a set of rules which invites creative interpretation and sometimes justification of your interpretation; the other is a set of sporting rules which clearly states that, amongst other things, consensus amongst all teams is required to have them set aside.

If Ferrari wanted this to pass they should have done what they used to do when they needed the votes of teams like Minardi, Jordan etc - by playing nice.

[Rob W]

...Ferrari dont consider any rule to apply to them, and when someone points out that they do they get angry and throw a hissy fit tantrum.

"precise wording of the regulations"...this from a team who was argueing against the DDD based on the spirit of the rules. hilarious.

So, so true.

People who complain about this, please look back at statements from Ferrari's lawyer on the eve of the DDD hearing.

Nigel Tozzi said: "only a person of supreme arrogance would think he is right when so many of his colleagues would disagree." - so you were wrong, where is the apology please?

He then went on: "Do not let someone attempting to be clever with words defeat the express purpose of the rules. Brawn, Toyota and Williams have not acted within the regulations." - Um...not according to the people who call the shots. You're just showing your true colours as a kid who throws his toys out of the cot!

Point being. Ferrari make proportionately more outlandish statements the more they want something to be true - even if they are dead wrong.

[Michiba]

Ferrari really show that they are the kings of PR facepalm. Their statement referring to Williams is a joke and a PR blunder.

Comparing this scenario to Williams' interpretation of the rules when coming up with their DDD is comparing apples with cats. One is a set of rules which invites creative interpretation and sometimes justification of your interpretation; the other is a set of sporting rules which clearly states that, amongst other things, consensus amongst all teams is required to have them set aside.

If Ferrari wanted this to pass they should have done what they used to do when they needed the votes of teams like Minardi, Jordan etc - by playing nice.

Well I don't want to get into another long winded debate about the DDD. I'm just saying on both occasions Williams with the DDD and Schumi testing the F60, as far as I know, no rules have been broken. Granted, in the latter, an exemption to the rules as they are worded is being sought.

Williams argument relates to the spirit of the rules. I and others think they broke the 'spirit' of the rules regarding the DDD, where the teams had agreed to limit development in that area. Yet they are now claiming that Ferrari are breaking the spirit of the rules which I don't think is the case. Ferrari aren't going against the 'spirit' of the rules regarding testing, as the testing ban was imposed to limit development. By all accounts, his testing of the F60 is not to develop the car, but to familiaries himself with it. So whether or not you agree with this is debatable.

I have nothing against Williams, I'm just highlighting a point. Many were quick to highlight the hypocrisy of Ferrari earlier this year when they came out against the DDD. I'm just doing the same with Williams without prejudice.

[Rob W]

..they are now claiming that Ferrari are breaking the spirit of the rules which I don't think is the case.... Ferrari aren't going against the 'spirit' of the rules regarding testing, as the testing ban was imposed to limit development. By all accounts, his testing of the F60 is not to develop the car, but to familiaries himself with it...

I have nothing against Williams, I'm just highlighting a point. ..... I'm just doing the same with Williams without prejudice.

I don't see the hypocrisy here with Williams though. As yet, no-one has given any valid reason why Schumacher should be allowed any testing time or why these circumstances are unique from what the rules cover. Ferrari haven't even given a reason (publicly at least).

The real point is, people are dreaming if they think Ferrari just want to refamiliarise Schumacher with the car. Primarily, Ferrari will use a test as an opportunity to test new car parts, gather data etc. That is what the teams are opposed to and is against the clear, unambiguous rules.

The DDD was about design rule interpretation and - being able to see the difference here is the first hurdle people need to overcome and is one which was well and truly settled in the hearing on it. The whole, 'spirit of the rules' line was only touted by the people trying to win this argument in the court of public opinion, not in some team/sport consensus of any importance.

I say, let them have an extra 2 hour practice as a public event before the next race and where all the other teams are also allowed if they wish. That way the expense is minimised and it is fairer to all. Any team choosing not to take part has one free test up their sleeve of equivalent 'value'.

[James]

The real point is, people are dreaming if they think Ferrari just want to refamiliarise Schumacher with the car. Primarily, Ferrari will use a test as an opportunity to test new car parts, gather data etc. That is what the teams are opposed to and is against the clear, unambiguous rules.


I say, let them have an extra 2 hour practice as a public event before the next race and where all the other teams are also allowed if they wish. That way the expense is minimised and it is fairer to all. Any team choosing not to take part has one free test up their sleeve of equivalent 'value'.

I don't think they could use it was a valuable test for new partas schumacher would have nothing to compare against, and im pretty sure the proposal was that the test would be attended by an FIA official to ensure this didn't happen.

I like your proposed solition though

[ISLAMATRON]

Has any other team run a 2007 spec car this year? exactly

Hi guys, I'm sorry if i'm missing something obvious but what would a team have to gain from running a 2007 spec car?

NOTHING....but the driver can test his fitness.

They tested using 2008 cars with 2009 DF levels this winter, they could easily do the same with 2007 cars

The "spirit" of the test ban rule was specifically to lower costs first and foremost, MS testing the F60 will cost more than zero so it is against both the letter & the spirit of the rule.

[James]

Hi islamatron

but what would that tell them apart from how an old car drives with the same amount of DF as the current car? I can see how this might be of use to a driver who hasn't been in an 09 car yet but not to somebody who gets to drive an 09 car every 2 weeks.

once again, sorry if im missing something obvious but it dosnt make much sence to me

[ISLAMATRON]

I'm not saying it is a direct reference but the main reason they used the 2008 cars with 2009 DF levels(this winter) was to get used to the grip level(or lack of) with the lower DF, and the farther forward weight bias under braking.

[James]

I can see that made sense in the winter but now the 09 cars are being used the vague guess would be useless for car development and not much use for a driver who is racing 09 cars.

I think that's why ferrari is the only team to have run a 07 car, not because they have some kind of unfair advantage but because no other team had a need to

[ISLAMATRON]

you are correct, it would be much more beneficial for the driver than for the team.

[DaveKillens]

Hi islamatron

but what would that tell them apart from how an old car drives with the same amount of DF as the current car? I can see how this might be of use to a driver who hasn't been in an 09 car yet but not to somebody who gets to drive an 09 car every 2 weeks.

once again, sorry if im missing something obvious but it dosnt make much sence to me

Telemetry is built into the cars, and differences in various aspects of performance can be measured. For instance, a change in front brake air scoop could result in decreased aero resistance but lower brake temperatures. Or maybe the reverse, the point is this data would be collected no matter who drove the car. Data such as this can tell the team what works or not, and what direction to go in development.
And having a scrutineer or FIA reps is useless. The car will be legal, but it's virtually impossible to note any changes from car to car, especially if the change is hidden deep within the car, or extremely fine in dimensions.
Could Ferrari pull off this kind of stunt? Absolutely yes. Would they? Only Ferrari know, but based on their previous attitude towards grabbing any advantage regardless of what others think, they would.

[Rob W]

...now the 09 cars are being used the vague guess would be useless for car development and not much use for a driver who is racing 09 cars.

I think that's why ferrari is the only team to have run a 07 car, not because they have some kind of unfair advantage but because no other team had a need to

This is absolutely wrong. A driver need only do consistent lap times for four or five laps, then change a part or setting and do another five - for them to gather potentially very useful data. Brake temps, Gs, wheel-spin, wing angles, etc. Read DaveKillens' post just above.

Schumacher could do consistent laps times in his sleep almost right away not to mention he'd offer expert feedback the likes of which other teams are prevented from gathering by the rules.

That is why this test simply cannot go ahead - for fairness reasons.

If you'd like another example of the absurdity of it - Alguersuari had never driven an F1 car on a circuit and managed to go through practice, qualifying and the race without incident - not to mention beating his team-mate in the race.

Yet we're expected to believe a guy who's been in over 249 F1 races and probably an equivalent amount of test hours somehow has some safety need or otherwise to be granted a test?

Get real.

[andartop]

Well andertop, this is a volatile mixture. First off, we see a lot of newer fans who have only a few years watching Formula One, have declared themselves Shu fans for life, and have no problem loudly defending someone they know so very little about.

It's actually from all sides that the comments keep on coming. I can't believe an issue like this has generated more interest than all bar one the GPs this year! As I said, it probably has to do with the summer brake more than anything else. Depraved F1 fans (myself included) seem to be quite a miserable lot!

Next thing we'll know, there'll be a thread full of people defending NP and his skills! Oh, wait...

Then we have Ferrari, who are being very active putting out press releases in an attempt to sway opinion. Who are they fooling? All it takes these days is to spend a few moments googling Ferrari and it's checkered history to learn what kind of outfit they really are.

I've said it a million times before in different threads: given half a chance, any F1 outfit would try anything within or outside the rules in order to gain an advantage. Try googling, say, "McLaren F1 Team" + "2007" + "scandal"! They were quite active as well with their press releases, and equally (if not more) full of bull!

Lastly, we have Michael Schumacher. The numbers don't lie, he is the most penalized and fined driver in Formula One history. Yea, he did re-write the record book and yes, he is a great driver. But his exploits sometimes were inappropriate, and that has made him a lightning rod for controversy and excessive emotion.

Yes, he is a lightning rod for controversy and excessive emotion. I guess it comes with being at the top for so long. As do the penalties and fines: Just look at how much LH has achieved in a such a short time of being near/at the top!!!

Of course Michael Schumacher will drive as he always has, with his amazing racecraft, perseverance, and intelligence. But a driver can only be as good as his car. The current pace of Ferrari development has returned them towards the front, so if the stars align he may sneak in a win. But don't expect Schumacher to be 5 seconds a lap quicker than Kimi, and he won't lap the entire field in a win.

Well, for that we just have to wait and see!