2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[Vinlarr89]

Last year Ferrari was slower than 2022 Ferrari in Jeddah.

Track wasn't the same (slower in 2023).

* This lap difference was T1, a weakness for Ferrari all weekend, and T11-12-13. In 11-12-13 Max is simply much faster while also not using the throttle that much. The difference is big

Ferrari stops deploying energy at ~240 kmh in those corners, that's why Lec is flatout and Ver isn't. It's a way to save tyres and energy for elsewhere.

That's fine on throttle usage, but Max is still plenty fast, at least compared to SAI or LEC in early laps. Lap 2 as I quoted elsewhere:

https://i.imgur.com/F3a9wuP.jpeg

VER gains something like 0.4s just in T11-12-13 against LEC on 2nd lap. Something RBR does on full car in fast long radius corners is simply great.

* RBR has better traction out of all corners, particularly up to 200kph RBR just accelerates better, then Ferrari takes over. This likely is a difference in deployment, but RBR seems to be better.

To this day I do not understand what anyone means when they say this or that PU deploys energy sooner than another one out of traction zones. The aim for any manufacturer is to deploys as soon as possible when traction allows it. If you see one car accelerate faster than another it is because it's got better traction and/or is lighter - be it fuel or total car weight. It's got nothing to do with anyone deploying sooner or later. another factor could be peak power, but nowadays top engines are almost equal in most circumstances.

I'm not saying that RBR deploys early in the straight while Ferrari doesn't. I'm saying that RBR has consistently more power to deploy early than Ferrari, and it's clear in acceleration up to 200kph, I think it was you that mentioned that Max was always at 100% charge, he's seems to be heavily recharging the car at the end of every straight. I would believe something is going on with how much fuel RBR needs to complete a race, I wouldn't be too surprised if they could run on 85-90kg for a full race instead of 100kg, this would be the only way to have a lighter car during the race (as you seem to hint).

I doubt that they would be running 15% more fuel efficiency. I suppose there could be a school of thought that with improved aero efficiency less fuel is required to achieve the same acceleration and then they can afford to conserve some fuel which then increases their acceleration again. It’s a complex logic, but if confident they don’t need to push 100% I guess it’s feasible it’s a risk they can take.


In terms of the power recovery and distribution, Ferrari could look to tweak it for better drive out of the corners if deg is good. I believe it was changed to try and aid the deg situation last year but now could be reverted?

[Vanja #66]

We would be having discussion of Leclerc vs Sainz, because they are close enough to have them.

You're taking about mistakes when the "#1 driver" should've been on pole but didn't make it happen. Interesting.

They are close, but the difference is obviously clear, no?

Leclerc should have been on pole? Maybe, he had the speed, which Sainz didn't (apropos the point above). How many points did this cost the team exactly?

[SoulPancake13]

We aren’t having any of these conversations if he nearly as bad as you’re insinuating yet we’re here just like we have been for the past 65+ races.

We wouldn't be having any discussions if it was just me, but clearly it's not just me. Poor starts, rookie spins/crashes in multiple races, "my priority is to beat my team mate" are some of the reasons some Tifosi are dissapointed with Sainz. Just don't say there's no difference in mentality between the two of them, it's clear as day for all who want to see...

We would be having discussion of Leclerc vs Sainz, because they are close enough to have them.

You're taking about mistakes when the "#1 driver" should've been on pole but didn't make it happen. Interesting.

Honestly, looking at data though, it isn't really close. If Charles should have been on pole, what does that say about Sainz who never even had that pace? Throughout Carlos's stint here, Charles has been on average 0.218% faster in the races, 0.155% faster in qualy. Race head to head is 36-18 and qualy head to head is 40-17. And yes, Sainz's bad start is a mistake. If he got a better start and kept P4, P2 would have been possible for him imo.

[Vinlarr89]

Done some analysis on T11-13 through F1 tempo. Looks like T11 issues are mostly caused by erratic braking on Leclerc car into the corner, and Sainz is very late onto the brakes on entry compared to Verstappen that’s early on brakes and early on the power out into t12. T12 seems to be strong, and I’m the second stint Leclerc is fastest through here even after a poor T11. T13 however Max is in a league of his own. He’s able to hold an extra 5kmh through there over Perez, Russell and Leclerc. Again though seems to ease a bit through exit of 12 smooth braking off early and onto the power, whereas Leclerc stays pinned through 12 and then braking more erratic (to be expected) leading to the differential.

I think you have to concede some may be down to Max excellence as much as the car, and difficult to tell how Charles might have responded if his brakes were all good.

[SoulPancake13]

I have to be honest, looking at Sainz's times, I think the gap is a little smaller than we think. Charles's times at the end with 0 front braking were basically matching Sainz's. If the issue is costing 5-6 tenths per lap, who knows what could have been possible... Charles did say the issue was there from lap 1.

For fun, I looked at Sainz's last lap on the hards before his inlap in stint 2 and the corresponding lap from Max. He loses all the time from T4 to T8. Obviously, I think Max was being hit by deg here considering his previous lap times, but still interesting nonetheless.

[Xyz22]

I have to be honest, looking at Sainz's times, I think the gap is a little smaller than we think. Charles's times at the end with 0 front braking were basically matching Sainz's. If the issue is costing 5-6 tenths per lap, who knows what could have been possible... Charles did say the issue was there from lap 1.

Personally, i've calculated around 0.3/0.4s as a real gap projecting Leclerc being around 0.25 / 0.35s faster than Sainz (based on previous performances in Bahrain) and Max having around 0.3s in his pocket.

[SoulPancake13]

I have to be honest, looking at Sainz's times, I think the gap is a little smaller than we think. Charles's times at the end with 0 front braking were basically matching Sainz's. If the issue is costing 5-6 tenths per lap, who knows what could have been possible... Charles did say the issue was there from lap 1.

Personally, i've calculated around 0.3/0.4s as a real gap projecting Leclerc being around 0.25 / 0.35s faster than Sainz (based on historic performances in Bahrain) and Max having around 0.3s in his pocket.

I really don't know how much the gap is to be honest because Max was pushing quite hard in stint 2 while Carlos was running to a delta, Max got hit with a decent amount of deg in those laps. I think that seems reasonable though.

[Cassius]

He created a SC gap to Perez during his hard stint and then backed off to match (or be closer to) the times of Perez.

Crazy to think of you he had more deg on hards than on softs.

So last year in Stint 2 he was doing 20 laps of 37.5 flat on Softs( while opening a steady SC gap to Checco) and now he did 9 laps of 35.2 on Hards (at least 1s slower than Softs), but he wasn't pushing? RB20 is 3s a lap faster than RB19? Common people...

Thermal degradation is there on all compounds, it's related to how much energy is put into tyres causing them to heat up closer to temperatures providing maximum grip. Pirelli designs their compounds with fairly low temperature cliff before thermal deg occurs, just as they are requested to. There's no magic brick compound that doesn't experience deg, it can only happen that a track has such a surface and corner combo that the chosen Hard compound there can't be heated up so much no matter how much drivers are pushing in the race. Bahrain is absolutely not such a track.

Lower temps. Track was at least a second faster. You don’t hear me saying hard has no deg. Max being a second slower during the stint incorporating the lower fuel is not the deg. Part of it is Max taking it easy.

[Chuckjr]

If Lewis Hamilton is unable to perform to the level of Tifosi's expectations I believe things will go south very quickly.
Being a 7WDC, expectations will be very high from both sides, but LH will have to deliver the result, especially against his younger teammate Charles.

Somehow I feel that LH might have already passed his prime and the grueling 24-race season may wear him out faster than he thought. Alonso for example has already started questioning his commitment to F1 in a recent interview when asked if he would consider joining Merc.

I commented on this earlier.

Many think this move for Lewis is a good one but like the turd pods, I’ve thought this idea bad since it started.

He should have stayed at Merc. His legacy is there, not at Ferrari. He was untouchable at Merc, not at Ferrari. In fact, Shal will work even harder to beat him and has more talent than King George. It is what it is.

Both Ferrari and Lewis are trying to capitalize on a career earned elsewhere, and unless he wins, it’s not going to go well. Ferrari fans have booed Lewis basically since he started racing F1, and I’ve no idea why Ferrari and Lewis think a signed contract, a smile, and a red racing suit changes anything. Just how low of a racing IQ does Ferrari and Lewis assume of their fan bases?

And this is a key point: if he gets beat by Charles it will be an even worse flop, and even more people will question just how talented he ever really was — which is a HUUUUUUUGE sticking point with those who stand in awe of Lewis. It’s like telling a Christian Jesus doesn’t exist. It conjures the same level of hate, despondency, and vile.

Think of what the tenure at Ferrari cost Vettel after his success at Red Bull? Everyone saw he really wasn’t that special after all (gave all kinds of fuel to the Vettel haters — I watched it live here and still do to this day), and I the argument surfaced again that he was a driver made champion by a car, not goat talent. It’s now beginning to happen to Max. Normies and light racing fans are going to finally see this pattern — that these so called goats are actually just above average drivers that landed in the right car at the right time. And hey, good for these drivers, right? I mean, that’s the goal of any driver, isn’t it? But being in the right place at the right time doesn’t make one a goat, because this is racing, not gambling.

Lewis had it in the bag at Merc. He built a legacy there and because he likely would not win anymore there, he left. Just like he did when he was at Macca after all those years of claiming he would always be a Macca driver because he was so loyal to them. This renders a loyalty pattern that is to winning and to himself, not to a team and to commitment. His tenure at Merc is seen by the unaware as his unending loyalty to Merc, but this latest action renders again the same pattern as his abandonment of Macca.

So this move to Ferrari is a big roll of the dice based on both thinking Lewis is some kind of untouchable hero. But racing realists know this isn’t true, because they are not blinded by assumed luster. And who can blame Lewis or Ferrari for thinking they are untouchable? It’s easy to get caught up in ones own success. If this flops, Lewis will experience what Vettel experienced…a hard dose of reality.

[deadhead]

Done some analysis on T11-13 through F1 tempo. Looks like T11 issues are mostly caused by erratic braking on Leclerc car into the corner, and Sainz is very late onto the brakes on entry compared to Verstappen that’s early on brakes and early on the power out into t12. T12 seems to be strong, and I’m the second stint Leclerc is fastest through here even after a poor T11. T13 however Max is in a league of his own. He’s able to hold an extra 5kmh through there over Perez, Russell and Leclerc. Again though seems to ease a bit through exit of 12 smooth braking off early and onto the power, whereas Leclerc stays pinned through 12 and then braking more erratic (to be expected) leading to the differential.

I think you have to concede some may be down to Max excellence as much as the car, and difficult to tell how Charles might have responded if his brakes were all good.

What do you make out of this?

https://x.com/Yuyujiteki_Si/status/1763 ... 24189?s=20

[f1316]

Vasseur other problem is to ensure Ferrari made the right decision to replace Sainz.

Sainz might not always be the quickest during qualifying but he seems to have better race craft.

Better racecraft than Hamilton? I don't think so.

I am comparing to Charles. As for LH what we have been hearing very regularly these days is him talking about chosing the wrong setup while GR got it right. Coming from a 7WDC, I sometimes question if LH can contribute much to Ferrari on setup and development.

I’m loathe to get drawn into any Sainz vs Leclerc debates - really all I care about is Ferrari - but I don’t agree that Sainz has better racecraft. I think he’s a smart, thinking driver but lacks an edge in pace and is usually slower over a stint and not quite as good with measured aggression in overtakes/defence as Charles (although he’s certainly not at all bad on the offensive side, as he showed yesterday).

If I could use an analogy: Max for me is like Michael, Charles is like Hakkinen and Carlos is like Coulthard. It’s possible that Mika was a slightly better qualifier than Michael (possible not clear - same with Max/Charles) but Michael could do those quali laps throughout an entire race and with rarely an error. Mika, on the other hand, was massively fast and could fly in a fast car that he liked, but almost through away a title to Irvine due to mistakes (I feel this way about Charles - give him the right car and he could beat Max to a title but Max will almost maximise more and make fewer mistake). Coulthard had his days when he beat Mika and was a genuinely top racing driver; he wasn’t *quite* in the elite group though and it showed over time against first Mika and then Kimi.

Obviously these analogies only go so far - they’re all different people - but it’s how I see the basics of this conversation fwiw.

[SoulPancake13]

Done some analysis on T11-13 through F1 tempo. Looks like T11 issues are mostly caused by erratic braking on Leclerc car into the corner, and Sainz is very late onto the brakes on entry compared to Verstappen that’s early on brakes and early on the power out into t12. T12 seems to be strong, and I’m the second stint Leclerc is fastest through here even after a poor T11. T13 however Max is in a league of his own. He’s able to hold an extra 5kmh through there over Perez, Russell and Leclerc. Again though seems to ease a bit through exit of 12 smooth braking off early and onto the power, whereas Leclerc stays pinned through 12 and then braking more erratic (to be expected) leading to the differential.

I think you have to concede some may be down to Max excellence as much as the car, and difficult to tell how Charles might have responded if his brakes were all good.

What do you make out of this?

https://x.com/Yuyujiteki_Si/status/1763 ... 24189?s=20

I just think the RB20 traction is just class of the field now and they have lots of energy to deploy, as dialtone said, it seems they harvest at the end of straights(altho this was qualy, he'd still have a decent amount of charge here).

[astralx]

Better racecraft than Hamilton? I don't think so.

I am comparing to Charles. As for LH what we have been hearing very regularly these days is him talking about chosing the wrong setup while GR got it right. Coming from a 7WDC, I sometimes question if LH can contribute much to Ferrari on setup and development.

I’m loathe to get drawn into any Sainz vs Leclerc debates - really all I care about is Ferrari - but I don’t agree that Sainz has better racecraft. I think he’s a smart, thinking driver but lacks an edge in pace and is usually slower over a stint and not quite as good with measured aggression in overtakes/defence as Charles (although he’s certainly not at all bad on the offensive side, as he showed yesterday).

If I could use an analogy: Max for me is like Michael, Charles is like Hakkinen and Carlos is like Coulthard. It’s possible that Mika was a slightly better qualifier than Michael (possible not clear - same with Max/Charles) but Michael could do those quali laps throughout an entire race and with rarely an error. Mika, on the other hand, was massively fast and could fly in a fast car that he liked, but almost through away a title to Irvine due to mistakes (I feel this way about Charles - give him the right car and he could beat Max to a title but Max will almost maximise more and make fewer mistake). Coulthard had his days when he beat Mika and was a genuinely top racing driver; he wasn’t *quite* in the elite group though and it showed over time against first Mika and then Kimi.

Obviously these analogies only go so far - they’re all different people - but it’s how I see the basics of this conversation fwiw.

100%

[SoulPancake13]

Better racecraft than Hamilton? I don't think so.

I am comparing to Charles. As for LH what we have been hearing very regularly these days is him talking about chosing the wrong setup while GR got it right. Coming from a 7WDC, I sometimes question if LH can contribute much to Ferrari on setup and development.

I’m loathe to get drawn into any Sainz vs Leclerc debates - really all I care about is Ferrari - but I don’t agree that Sainz has better racecraft. I think he’s a smart, thinking driver but lacks an edge in pace and is usually slower over a stint and not quite as good with measured aggression in overtakes/defence as Charles (although he’s certainly not at all bad on the offensive side, as he showed yesterday).

If I could use an analogy: Max for me is like Michael, Charles is like Hakkinen and Carlos is like Coulthard. It’s possible that Mika was a slightly better qualifier than Michael (possible not clear - same with Max/Charles) but Michael could do those quali laps throughout an entire race and with rarely an error. Mika, on the other hand, was massively fast and could fly in a fast car that he liked, but almost through away a title to Irvine due to mistakes (I feel this way about Charles - give him the right car and he could beat Max to a title but Max will almost maximise more and make fewer mistake). Coulthard had his days when he beat Mika and was a genuinely top racing driver; he wasn’t *quite* in the elite group though and it showed over time against first Mika and then Kimi.

Obviously these analogies only go so far - they’re all different people - but it’s how I see the basics of this conversation fwiw.

I am biased, but I think you are being quite harsh on Charles here... I really don't think there is much between the two, just Max having a much better car than the rest of the field allowing him to not really be challenged. You only make mistakes when under pressure as an F1 driver, something we saw Max do in 2021 when Lewis was closing in.

[dia6olo]

I am comparing to Charles. As for LH what we have been hearing very regularly these days is him talking about chosing the wrong setup while GR got it right. Coming from a 7WDC, I sometimes question if LH can contribute much to Ferrari on setup and development.

I’m loathe to get drawn into any Sainz vs Leclerc debates - really all I care about is Ferrari - but I don’t agree that Sainz has better racecraft. I think he’s a smart, thinking driver but lacks an edge in pace and is usually slower over a stint and not quite as good with measured aggression in overtakes/defence as Charles (although he’s certainly not at all bad on the offensive side, as he showed yesterday).

If I could use an analogy: Max for me is like Michael, Charles is like Hakkinen and Carlos is like Coulthard. It’s possible that Mika was a slightly better qualifier than Michael (possible not clear - same with Max/Charles) but Michael could do those quali laps throughout an entire race and with rarely an error. Mika, on the other hand, was massively fast and could fly in a fast car that he liked, but almost through away a title to Irvine due to mistakes (I feel this way about Charles - give him the right car and he could beat Max to a title but Max will almost maximise more and make fewer mistake). Coulthard had his days when he beat Mika and was a genuinely top racing driver; he wasn’t *quite* in the elite group though and it showed over time against first Mika and then Kimi.

Obviously these analogies only go so far - they’re all different people - but it’s how I see the basics of this conversation fwiw.

I am biased, but I think you are being quite harsh on Charles here... I really don't think there is much between the two, just Max having a much better car than the rest of the field allowing him to not really be challenged. You only make mistakes when under pressure as an F1 driver, something we saw Max do in 2021 when Lewis was closing in.

I also agree with this, I feel people to readily ignore the part the car plays, it feels like with some drivers the fact that they have superior machinery is irrelevant, it's all about the superior driver, all those other poor drivers with their inferior cars just get treaded as lesser drivers. The fact that they don't have the machinery is irrelevant it seems.

Another thing they do is compare to team mates but even that is flawed.
For one the car is often not the same for both because of differing driving styles.
Another one is that some teams clearly run team orders with some of those second drivers quite frankly being nothing more than a seat filler...