2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

[RonMexico]

i think we need to start to warm up to these terms:

-BoP
-success ballast

without these in the current budget cap, stable reg, prescriptive regs F1 will die.
at least back in the ferrari and merc dynasties you had teams that can give them a run for their money, but now its out of everyones reach.

No one came within an asses roar of Mercedes for three full seasons.

[chrisc90]

i think we need to start to warm up to these terms:

-BoP
-success ballast

without these in the current budget cap, stable reg, prescriptive regs F1 will die.
at least back in the ferrari and merc dynasties you had teams that can give them a run for their money, but now its out of everyones reach.

Absolutely not.

F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. Where engineers should be allowed to create the best they can - within budget and the regulations.

If we looking at nerfing other cars, might aswell watch F2 or any other spec series where all machinery is identical.

[f1jcw]

i think we need to start to warm up to these terms:

-BoP
-success ballast

without these in the current budget cap, stable reg, prescriptive regs F1 will die.
at least back in the ferrari and merc dynasties you had teams that can give them a run for their money, but now its out of everyones reach.

Absolutely not.

F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. Where engineers should be allowed to create the best they can - within budget and the regulations.

If we looking at nerfing other cars, might aswell watch F2 or any other spec series where all machinery is identical.

Going back through the ages, cars where hit with regulation changes all the time to close them back into the pack.

[DChemTech]

i think we need to start to warm up to these terms:

-BoP
-success ballast

without these in the current budget cap, stable reg, prescriptive regs F1 will die.
at least back in the ferrari and merc dynasties you had teams that can give them a run for their money, but now its out of everyones reach.

That this has anything to do with the budget cap is utter nonsense. Whether topteams expend 400 million or are capped at 150 million, they remain equally out of reach to one another - but without the budget cap, the top teams are out of range for the lower spenders by default.

I am all for more stable - or at least predictable regs (it is fine if there are changes year-to-year as long as teams can anticipate the long term), as each time that there are big sudden reg changes, it is almost inevitable one team dominates. But that was always the case, and so far, we never needed BoP action.

[fourmula1]

i think we need to start to warm up to these terms:

-BoP
-success ballast

without these in the current budget cap, stable reg, prescriptive regs F1 will die.
at least back in the ferrari and merc dynasties you had teams that can give them a run for their money, but now its out of everyones reach.

Absolutely not.

F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. Where engineers should be allowed to create the best they can - within budget and the regulations.

If we looking at nerfing other cars, might aswell watch F2 or any other spec series where all machinery is identical.

The budget and regulations you find as lets say "normal" aren't ideal to everyone. You may accept them as true to your version of F1 but some of us think we have to be open minded to more options to provide more wheel to wheel racing. I say get rid of the budget cap and at least let the top 2-3 teams go to war. You say keep the budget cap to accommodate the bottom of the grid, but to me competition and innovation is slowed. That is not my F1.

We already have DRS, tire compounds and mandatory changes, scaling wind tunnel time, a budget cap that is pennies compared to what the top teams used to spend, and regulations that limit a ton of aero.

I feel the same way as you about BoP/Ballast type stuff when I hear it...but when I really sit with it...I have to be open minded. It already is a show and I believe it can be better.

[DChemTech]

i think we need to start to warm up to these terms:

-BoP
-success ballast

without these in the current budget cap, stable reg, prescriptive regs F1 will die.
at least back in the ferrari and merc dynasties you had teams that can give them a run for their money, but now its out of everyones reach.

Absolutely not.

F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. Where engineers should be allowed to create the best they can - within budget and the regulations.

If we looking at nerfing other cars, might aswell watch F2 or any other spec series where all machinery is identical.

The budget and regulations you find as lets say "normal" aren't ideal to everyone. You may accept them as true to your version of F1 but some of us think we have to be open minded to more options to provide more wheel to wheel racing. I say get rid of the budget cap and at least let the top 2-3 teams go to war. You say keep the budget cap to accommodate the bottom of the grid, but to me competition and innovation is slowed. That is not my F1.

We already have DRS, tire compounds and mandatory changes, scaling wind tunnel time, a budget cap that is pennies compared to what the top teams used to spend, and regulations that limit a ton of aero.

I feel the same way as you about BoP/Ballast type stuff when I hear it...but when I really sit with it...I have to be open minded. It already is a show and I believe it can be better.

Unlimited spending does not lead to more wheel to wheel action, it just leads to more distance between top teams and the rest, with the same differences between top teams (assuming they spend more or less equally). It's a pay to win situation that has nothing to do with sports. If F1 wants to be a sport, it should be about who performs best given equal resources - not about who has most resources to begin with.

Otherwise, if it should be a show, the solution is simple: give everyone the same car. Much better competition, and still an (even fairee) sport in terms of driver performance. Just no longer F1 as we know it.

[Sieper]

They should just make the faster drivers more heavy. Lewis has been lean his whole life. Let him have some crisps and coke. Max want to eat much more then he is allowed. Put a weight minimum of 5 extra kg per WC up to four on them. 20 extra kg, that will balance their talent out. Ocon really needs to start winning so he can add some weight, the poor thing.

[chrisc90]

Keeping a budget cap would mean the latter 7 or 8 teams dont get a look in, as you would have likes of RB, Mercedes and Ferrari blowing £5-700million and will blow the 7 or 8 teams out the water, meaning theres less competition; unless you want a fight between 6 cars.

I think the problem lies with talent and correlation between the computer and race track. Maybe if all teams had the same CFD programs, and wind-tunnel, then you wouldnt have all these wild cars that arent matching what the computer expects them to do. That CFD alone would probably bring a lot of teams back in check with each other. (RE windtunnels....it will be interesting to see how well the AMR one works when it comes online). But then on other hand you have Red Bull using a tunnel from the cold war thats been upgraded.

I cant help but think that the regulations are mostly to blame aswell, cars getting heavier, more focused towards electric hybrid stuff etc. It's all weight, larger cars. What we need is for F1 to sack off all the eco-garbage (offset it by being carbon neutral to please the tree huggers) and bring back the V10s or V12's and have pure engine performance and noise. Together with much smaller, narrower cars and weigh much less. That would make your season much more interesting straight away.

[DChemTech]

Keeping a budget cap would mean the latter 7 or 8 teams dont get a look in, as you would have likes of RB, Mercedes and Ferrari blowing £5-700million and will blow the 7 or 8 teams out the water, meaning theres less competition; unless you want a fight between 6 cars.

I think the problem lies with talent and correlation between the computer and race track. Maybe if all teams had the same CFD programs, and wind-tunnel, then you wouldnt have all these wild cars that arent matching what the computer expects them to do. That CFD alone would probably bring a lot of teams back in check with each other. (RE windtunnels....it will be interesting to see how well the AMR one works when it comes online). But then on other hand you have Red Bull using a tunnel from the cold war thats been upgraded.

I cant help but think that the regulations are mostly to blame aswell, cars getting heavier, more focused towards electric hybrid stuff etc. It's all weight, larger cars. What we need is for F1 to sack off all the eco-garbage (offset it by being carbon neutral to please the tree huggers) and bring back the V10s or V12's and have pure engine performance and noise. Together with much smaller, narrower cars and weigh much less. That would make your season much more interesting straight away.

One solution there could be a full budget cap that includes all staff and driver salaries - then teams also have to choose between having a top driver but less development money, or more money for the car but gambling on a less established driver. That could spice things up a bit more.

(I disagree on the 'eco-neutral garbage' and your derogatory comments about people that are justifiably worried about climate change though)

[JordanMugen]

FIA gave this on a silver platter to RBR. We've seen how many times Merc innovations were called back. Haven't seen any with RB.

Because there are no obvious things to target with technical directives on the Red Bull?

If some come to light, I'm sure they will be addressed. As it is, it just seems to be a better optimised car than rival cars.

One solution there could be a full budget cap that includes all staff and driver salaries - then teams also have to choose between having a top driver but less development money

Would Ferrari accept that? Ferrari will be spending more on drivers ($60m p/a Leclerc + $100m p/a Hamilton) than the entire budget cap.

Surely Ferrari would veto such an idea?

[Watto]

FIA f'ed up. In the land of the blind, Newey is the only one who as a clear understanding. If that was not the case - explain me how it is possible that so many teams were troubled by porpoising?

FIA gave this on a silver platter to RBR. We've seen how many times Merc innovations were called back. Haven't seen any with RB.

They did when RB was last as dominate in a set of rules in the Vettel days.

They also banned blown diffusers through 2 different sets of rule, can't recall the order but was hot blown (on throttle) then cold blown (off throttle) diffusers that were banned that RBR used in grey areas of the rules

[Watto]

FIA gave this on a silver platter to RBR. We've seen how many times Merc innovations were called back. Haven't seen any with RB.

Because there are no obvious things to target with technical directives on the Red Bull?

If some come to light, I'm sure they will be addressed. As it is, it just seems to be a better optimised car than rival cars.

One solution there could be a full budget cap that includes all staff and driver salaries - then teams also have to choose between having a top driver but less development money

Would Ferrari accept that? Ferrari will be spending more on drivers ($60m p/a Leclerc + $100m p/a Hamilton) than the entire budget cap.

Surely Ferrari would veto such an idea?

As I posted above when Red Bull last tried that in the Vettel days through Flexi Wings and perhaps even more so blown diffusers (that were cleaver work arounds of the rules not quite banned like plenty of Mercedes tricks) when RBR were dominating they stepped in

[Sevach]

FIA f'ed up. In the land of the blind, Newey is the only one who as a clear understanding. If that was not the case - explain me how it is possible that so many teams were troubled by porpoising?

FIA gave this on a silver platter to RBR. We've seen how many times Merc innovations were called back. Haven't seen any with RB.

That's one of saying you only pay attention to what suits you...

Front wing flexing clampdown, multiple attempts to shut down diffuser blowing(finally accomplished with a center exhaust), rear wing flexing clampdown and pit stop clampdown(both in 2021).
And that's just Red Bull, during the 2017/18/19 years Mercedes was more focussed on pushing things to harm Ferrari(and they did with banning secondary oil tanks and things like that) since they presented a bigger threat.

And finally floor edge height and plank flexing, it backfired mightly... but it was aimed at ruining both them and Ferrari.

[Watto]

FIA f'ed up. In the land of the blind, Newey is the only one who as a clear understanding. If that was not the case - explain me how it is possible that so many teams were troubled by porpoising?

FIA gave this on a silver platter to RBR. We've seen how many times Merc innovations were called back. Haven't seen any with RB.

That's one of saying you only pay attention to what suits you...

Front wing flexing clampdown, multiple attempts to shut down diffuser blowing(finally accomplished with a center exhaust), rear wing flexing clampdown and pit stop clampdown(both in 2021).
And that's just Red Bull, during the 2017/18/19 years Mercedes was more focussed on pushing things to harm Ferrari(and they did with banning secondary oil tanks and things like that) since they presented a bigger threat.

And finally floor edge height and plank flexing, it backfired mightly... but it was aimed at ruining both them and Ferrari.

Yep. Mentioned a the flexi wings and blown diffusers above forgot about those others. RBR were the kinds of fineing loopholes around the flexiwing rules back then and modifications they made. Renault did very well too with the blown diffuser - which I can't quite recall all the details on between the hot and cold blown but recall it wasn't an easy task controlling how much the exhaust'blew' off and on throttle some tricky engine mapping etc.

The tyre wars were a shot at Ferrari's dominance too iircc. The FIA has a long history here on many teams don't think they single anyone out if found using too grey an area of the rules.

[mendis]

FIA f'ed up. In the land of the blind, Newey is the only one who as a clear understanding. If that was not the case - explain me how it is possible that so many teams were troubled by porpoising?

FIA gave this on a silver platter to RBR. We've seen how many times Merc innovations were called back. Haven't seen any with RB.

That's one of saying you only pay attention to what suits you...

Front wing flexing clampdown, multiple attempts to shut down diffuser blowing(finally accomplished with a center exhaust), rear wing flexing clampdown and pit stop clampdown(both in 2021).
And that's just Red Bull, during the 2017/18/19 years Mercedes was more focussed on pushing things to harm Ferrari(and they did with banning secondary oil tanks and things like that) since they presented a bigger threat.

And finally floor edge height and plank flexing, it backfired mightly... but it was aimed at ruining both them and Ferrari.

There was a TD in the middle of 2021 that slowed Honda. It was said to then hurt the way Honda was managing the electrical power.