2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[mwillems]

Yeah its always possible for something to happen. But the reasonable expectation is at least fifth, or 3rd fastest car as we'd been calling out pre miami lol

But I think we'll be in with a shout for the win again. But with my usual caveat about this being setup very differently.

[Farnborough]

3 things……
IF Mclaren are running a conventional suspension and doing so well then if they switch to the trick suspension they could do extremely well?

However, because they are doing so well, like you say are they already running it?

Lastly I recall Horner saying towards the end of last season that McLaren run the closest in similarity to Red Bull rear suspension wise?

I'm not suggesting they are running whatever system it is. But the article is written as if we aren't using torsion bars as it starts with listing the teams that are using torsion bars and we aren't included. But I'm pretty confident that we moved to torsion springs this year.

As for whatever the trick is to lower the suspension, I'm sure the team do believe in it and would use it, it is just Stella talking about the pitfalls of not getting it working right that is probably lost in translation and comes across as if it's something we wouldn't do.

Torsion bar suspension has been used at least as far back as the Lotus 72 in 1970. The car also started with anti-dive and anti-squat geometry, later removed as they weren't able to find a good setup. Eventually in 1975 the ageing Lotus 72E after 5 seasons and 2xWDCs reverted to coil spring suspension. Of course weight jackers and ride height systems have been tried and used to some effect (including current MotoGP bikes) but these variations come and go frequently just like various pushrod and pullrod systems. I don't think McLaren will necessarily rush to go this way just because RedBull has gone that direction. As RedBull appear to be getting near the ceiling of performance with these regulations I can imagine McLaren will be looking for their own approaches in general to try to leapfrog the champions. The steady but not slow progress they are making over the last 11 months vindicates a careful approach to developing what shows in the WT and simulator, confirmed at every step by the stopwatch and other measurements of on-track performance.

I'm one on this forum who quietly claims I can actually see the different front end attitude of the car since day 1 at Miami, and I'm a little surprised at others here who believe it's too subtle to see. To me it's turn in on slow corners looks far more positive. From early FP1 I was quietly screaming "Yes, now we have something we can compete with!" With the very significantly improved performance on the tracks we've seen since Miami, it remains to be seen whether the more than respectable high speed corner performance we saw at Silverstone last year will still be there with this car. Nothing can be assumed, they may have altered the circuit specific performance of the 38B away from what we saw on the 60B. I was pretty disappointed with how the 38 without the updates went at Suzuka this year given 2023's incredible pace.

If I was a betting person I'd comfortably bet we are right in the top 5 fight for podium(s) at Canada, with a win on the cards if we make a good start on Friday.

Worthwhile pointing out ? a "coil" spring is only a torsion bar wrapped into a different shape, its action being the same in regard to movement.

Original Morris minor was always a torsion bar front suspension, with rotary damper forming the upper "wishbone" suspension link too.
Citröen 2CV was "FRICS" front rear interconnect suspension, with mass damper at each wheel to control tire "resonance " with i think zero anti-roll

Its really much more knowing about just what the engineer wants the system to do, that visualisation and application of design to counter unwanted movement and promotion of the desirable.

Moto-X in the 1980s used "floating" rear spring shock component, progressive accumulation of load rate etc with more current downhill MTB rear suspension demonstration of variously shifting progression, digression and linearity within the wheel's suspension stroke.

So much is out there, making a wrong step easier than a very good one it would seem, with one of the big challenge here to support accumulation of aero load while still coping with track surface irregularities and keeping the floor assembly where its designed to run.

Overview of McL MP4-4 in regard to front suspension is illuminating from a design point as it shows how they packaged a progressive curve into to the design by alternative method from it's contemporary cars.

[Farnborough]

Apologies BBMMR61 if it seems like personal criticism, its likely my grammar as I'm trying to post discussion (hopefully not failed) but reading it back it looks like pointed statement and not my intention.

[MrGapes]

The biggest factor going into this next race weekend is the track resurfacing, afaik it seems to be a complete track resurface; thus, the ride should be way smoother compared to the last few years… Without the resurfacing this was probably going to be all Ferrari weekend.. but this could also means RB return to form. With no other prior racing series, the circuit should be quite low grip initially and will see heavy evolution throughout the weekend, this will be emphasized particularly with low temp conditions, which should play into our hands.

Kerbs have also been changed... looking forward to some pics, could end up being far more conventional

[BMMR61]

Apologies BBMMR61 if it seems like personal criticism, its likely my grammar as I'm trying to post discussion (hopefully not failed) but reading it back it looks like pointed statement and not my intention.

No worries Farnborough - your technical insights and explanations are always welcome in my world!

At the mention of the use of portion bar suspension it took me back to my teens when I built a 1/12 Tamiya kit of a JPS Lotus 72, and I remember clearly the layout of the torsion bars. Also the early use of "rising rate" lever suspension with the McLaren M19, predecessor to the fantastic M23 was early progress in trying new stuff. So much these days is not just secret (always was initially) but impossible to see. And I recall the rapidly evolving motocross days in the 70s and 80s too, where controlled long travel suspension was usually the deciding factor in the protagonists.

Today, with the need for mechanically unsealed venturis to be a small distance from the track surface, it must be again, pretty hard on the drivers like in the fabulous crazy 80s. McLaren seem to be maximising things with a "conventional" suspension system at the moment but Newey has shown that breakthroughs are still possible.

[BMMR61]

The biggest factor going into this next race weekend is the track resurfacing, afaik it seems to be a complete track resurface; thus, the ride should be way smoother compared to the last few years… Without the resurfacing this was probably going to be all Ferrari weekend.. but this could also means RB return to form. With no other prior racing series, the circuit should be quite low grip initially and will see heavy evolution throughout the weekend, this will be emphasized particularly with low temp conditions, which should play into our hands.

Kerbs have also been changed... looking forward to some pics, could end up being far more conventional

I like "low temp conditions". Did you see how quickly Oscar got the extra grip on Charles on lap 1 at Monaco through the tunnel? Looks like McLaren have to some degree retained that characteristic.

[LionsHeart]

3 things……
IF Mclaren are running a conventional suspension and doing so well then if they switch to the trick suspension they could do extremely well?

However, because they are doing so well, like you say are they already running it?

Lastly I recall Horner saying towards the end of last season that McLaren run the closest in similarity to Red Bull rear suspension wise?

I'm not suggesting they are running whatever system it is. But the article is written as if we aren't using torsion bars as it starts with listing the teams that are using torsion bars and we aren't included. But I'm pretty confident that we moved to torsion springs this year.

As for whatever the trick is to lower the suspension, I'm sure the team do believe in it and would use it, it is just Stella talking about the pitfalls of not getting it working right that is probably lost in translation and comes across as if it's something we wouldn't do.

Interesting things you discuss here. I'll connect. Regarding the suspension: I think McLaren now uses a different approach to the stiffness of the springs or torsion bars, depending on what they use. There is some probability that this rigidity is progressive and does not have a linear characteristic. Let’s say at low speeds the spring is soft and absorbs bumps well, and thanks to the soft settings the chassis lowers down earlier under the influence of downforce.

Also, after the presentation, someone wrote here in the thread that McLaren now uses torsion compounds in the rear suspension and even posted photos from pre-season tests. If I remember correctly, someone definitely mentioned torsion bars. So, perhaps AMuS were mistaken about McLaren.

Maybe I'm wrong and all teams use progressive spring settings. This option is comfortable in slow corners and high curbs, but becomes more rigid at high speeds and when generating high downforce. I also believe that this option is more difficult to set up, since the non-linear characteristics of the springs can work well with some turns and poorly with others. Perhaps part of the problem with long slow turns lies here? I don't have the answers.

There is another counter question. If there are torsion bars, how is the suspension travel limited under load? The same limiting dampers are used, or the limiter is the torsion bar itself, when after a certain load the material can no longer twist.

[LionsHeart]

I'm not suggesting they are running whatever system it is. But the article is written as if we aren't using torsion bars as it starts with listing the teams that are using torsion bars and we aren't included. But I'm pretty confident that we moved to torsion springs this year.

As for whatever the trick is to lower the suspension, I'm sure the team do believe in it and would use it, it is just Stella talking about the pitfalls of not getting it working right that is probably lost in translation and comes across as if it's something we wouldn't do.

Torsion bar suspension has been used at least as far back as the Lotus 72 in 1970. The car also started with anti-dive and anti-squat geometry, later removed as they weren't able to find a good setup. Eventually in 1975 the ageing Lotus 72E after 5 seasons and 2xWDCs reverted to coil spring suspension. Of course weight jackers and ride height systems have been tried and used to some effect (including current MotoGP bikes) but these variations come and go frequently just like various pushrod and pullrod systems. I don't think McLaren will necessarily rush to go this way just because RedBull has gone that direction. As RedBull appear to be getting near the ceiling of performance with these regulations I can imagine McLaren will be looking for their own approaches in general to try to leapfrog the champions. The steady but not slow progress they are making over the last 11 months vindicates a careful approach to developing what shows in the WT and simulator, confirmed at every step by the stopwatch and other measurements of on-track performance.

I'm one on this forum who quietly claims I can actually see the different front end attitude of the car since day 1 at Miami, and I'm a little surprised at others here who believe it's too subtle to see. To me it's turn in on slow corners looks far more positive. From early FP1 I was quietly screaming "Yes, now we have something we can compete with!" With the very significantly improved performance on the tracks we've seen since Miami, it remains to be seen whether the more than respectable high speed corner performance we saw at Silverstone last year will still be there with this car. Nothing can be assumed, they may have altered the circuit specific performance of the 38B away from what we saw on the 60B. I was pretty disappointed with how the 38 without the updates went at Suzuka this year given 2023's incredible pace.

If I was a betting person I'd comfortably bet we are right in the top 5 fight for podium(s) at Canada, with a win on the cards if we make a good start on Friday.

Worthwhile pointing out ? a "coil" spring is only a torsion bar wrapped into a different shape, its action being the same in regard to movement.

Original Morris minor was always a torsion bar front suspension, with rotary damper forming the upper "wishbone" suspension link too.
Citröen 2CV was "FRICS" front rear interconnect suspension, with mass damper at each wheel to control tire "resonance " with i think zero anti-roll

Its really much more knowing about just what the engineer wants the system to do, that visualisation and application of design to counter unwanted movement and promotion of the desirable.

Moto-X in the 1980s used "floating" rear spring shock component, progressive accumulation of load rate etc with more current downhill MTB rear suspension demonstration of variously shifting progression, digression and linearity within the wheel's suspension stroke.

So much is out there, making a wrong step easier than a very good one it would seem, with one of the big challenge here to support accumulation of aero load while still coping with track surface irregularities and keeping the floor assembly where its designed to run.

Overview of McL MP4-4 in regard to front suspension is illuminating from a design point as it shows how they packaged a progressive curve into to the design by alternative method from it's contemporary cars.

Oh, and you also think about the progressive spring/torsion bar tuning. Perhaps you are more familiar with this than I am. So I'll ask you a question. What methods are used to control the compression stroke of a torsion bar? Is something like a rubber damper-limiter used for this, or does the torsion bar itself twist up to a certain point and then act as a limiter? I have only once seen a torsion bar on an all-wheel drive SUV and have never paid attention to why the compression travel of the suspension is limited.

[Farnborough]

In general, most metal spring component/material are designed to exceed the travel limits to avoid compromise of component integrity as their function is to "carry" load in contrast to limit it. I can't recall example of limiting travel through just the spring at the extreme when it needs to stop.

Elastomer material is a very good and cheap way to arrest absolute movement in suspension range, this by providing a softer "stop" within limitations of range to reduce peak shock (shock, as in peak staccato input) loads demolishing the whole structure or parts of it.

The hydraulic action of damper should try to control the pace of change within usage profile to avoid hitting the end of travel, but that would not allow for unexpected very high input that can then be mitigated by elastomer type material as a final effort to arrest movement.

[LionsHeart]

In general, most metal spring component/material are designed to exceed the travel limits to avoid compromise of component integrity as their function is to "carry" load in contrast to limit it. I can't recall example of limiting travel through just the spring at the extreme when it needs to stop.

Elastomer material is a very good and cheap way to arrest absolute movement in suspension range, this by providing a softer "stop" within limitations of range to reduce peak shock (shock, as in peak staccato input) loads demolishing the whole structure or parts of it.

The hydraulic action of damper should try to control the pace of change within usage profile to avoid hitting the end of travel, but that would not allow for unexpected very high input that can then be mitigated by elastomer type material as a final effort to arrest movement.

Thank you for your reply. Very interesting thoughts.

[Mostlyeels]

Imola had a setup directed towards low speeds, so did Miami and Monaco. It's safe to say that this car has not been tested yet where it is to be set up for a tracks like Canada and Barcelona. Barcelona is known as a great place to test what your car can do, just like Japan.

Yeah, probably all Barcelona lacks now is very slow corners (S2 still seems quite fast, might be wrong).

I think it was spoken about at length over the past 6 to 8 weeks that a car that you trust and where you can more readily feel the limits is a car that the drivers will be more confident in extracting consistent time in the race and allow the drivers to find a smaller amount of time on their fast laps, but also be able to reliably get in laps that were close to, but stayed on the right side of, the edge of what the car can do.

Crosswind sensitivity seems a little better? I remember Lando losing a quali lap with it earlier this season?

Tyre deg at lower track temps seems better than before?

The answer likely lies in some mix of the drivers getting less from the raw downforce potential of the previous car than expected, they are getting more from the potential of the current car or quite simply when all the variables are put together as a package that works well, additional time can be found that isn't specific to a part of the car.

I look forward to hearing from the team in a race or two about why this worked, although I suspect this is something they will keep quiet.

I suspect so too, but it is fun to guess

It's great to hear that the low speed corners are the area most improved and that it is looking "good" in the low speeds. Suggests the old weaknesses of the car are gone.

But as I say, it's not yet been seen at a track where the setup isn't so focussed. This is why I was saying to LionsHeart that the next 3 tracks would be very interesting.

Yeah, I looked at the schedule for the first time in ages. I'm actually quite keen to see performance on the Red Bull Ring, although the mix of corners is atypical.

It's a bit misleading to look at sectors. It was happening at Monaco where we'd lose time at various points on the track, gain it back at others and we'd look good in a sector, but we'd lose a smaller amount of time in the last sector and that would be the headline because we didn't gain it back. Reality is there were several points in the track where we lost and gained with the last corner being just one. The sectors are just something consumable for casual fans.

Barcelona has a Hairpin at turn 10 and some slow turns at 5 and 14, 15 with 12 being a nice long slower turn. it's got some faster flowing sections and a great last corner so that we can exit onto the straight at speed and test the efficiency. Plenty there for the team to think about in setup and in data. Canada too is a great challenge and I can't wait.

Fingers crossed we can keep up our run of finishing no lower than second!

Yep, that would be an awesome result.

My comments about S2 in Barcelona was that it seems the slowest part of the track, now that the chicane before the last corner is gone. I was surprised that the corners in it were still quite fast, in comparison to really slow corners in other tracks, though I do take your point that it has some good combinations of corners, nothing too slow and nothing like the esses.

The hairpin is still a bit faster than the one at Canada, or the "snail" in China (though that is a peculiar outlier). The corners in Barcelona still seem medium-high speed?

[mwillems]

The car seems relatively capable through all corner types, the test now is how capable is it through the corner types with a different setup. So Barcelona may not have the faster or slowest sections but it will probably be more a test than Miami, Imola and Monaco, as will Canada. But Barcelona is known as a great track for putting the cars through their paces, it's partly why they tested there.

Edit: Spelling mistake

[Mostlyeels]

To be fair we've only finished outside the top 5 once out of eight races so that's a reasonably safe bet

Yeah well we've seen plenty of egg on faces haven't we? I just think this team are becoming a lot more solid in their sim and setup work which many underestimate the importance of. Miss the setup in a big way in FP1 (as RedBull have done recently) and there's a lot of risk in getting back to where you need to be. In private (I'll put it out there) I think a win is well on the cards with either driver. Oscar has phenomenal raw pace and Lando is great on the Pirelli front.

I really feel McLaren have been on top of their setup game this year and last year, especially on sprint weekends where they've brought upgrades and nailed the setup immediately.

[Mostlyeels]

The car seems relatively capable through all corner types, the test now is how capable is it through the corner types with a different setup. So Barcelona may not have the faster or slowest sections but it will probably be more a test than Miami, Imola and Monaco, as will Canada. But Barcelona is known as a great track for putting the cars through their paces, it's partly why they tested their.

Would certainly agree with you there w.r.t Barcelona vs other tracks.

[FittingMechanics]

Current weather forecast is flirting with rain. Right now it is predicting a rainy Saturday with cold but dry Sunday afternoon. We'll see how it develops.