2024 car comparison thread

[mclaren111]

This is Formula 1:

Mercedes McLaren Rear Wing Comparison:

- McLaren's MCL38 maintains the wing specification used in Canada.

- Three specifications to choose from, used in Bahrain and the Japanese Grand Prix.

- It generates excellent load from the floor with stiffer trims and also optimises high-speed cornering.

- It has good entry stability at high speeds, similar to Ferrari.

- Aerodynamic benefits allow for extra load without significant straight-line speed penalties.

- Current wing specification last used in Canada, not thoroughly tested with the updated car.

- Mercedes' W15 features a spoon profile rear wing seen in several events this year.

- Focuses on temperature management to handle tire compounds effectively.

- Setup aims to minimize slip and optimize race performance.

- Similar tyre management strategy to Ferrari.

[zioture]

[Fakepivot]

why does mclaren and redbull has a dip in the middle of the wing ? while ferrari and merc has straight wing

[Vanja #66]

why does mclaren and redbull has a dip in the middle of the wing ? while ferrari and merc has straight wing

Red Bull has a cut, while McLaren has a dip and a cut. This is where initial separation occurs on rear wings, sometimes it's beneficial to leave it there since it can add a bit of downforce even if the flow is detached. Sometime it's better to make a cut or even add a dip when you don't want too much drag and you are fine with a bit less downforce.

Ferrari maybe has a separation there, since their flap's rear surface is almost vertical at the trailing edge, but they are fine with it obviously. Here's a photo from Canada showing separation on the mid-loaded wing



Mercedes is less likely to have any separation at all, their flap is at a much lower angle and here in Imola we could see no separation at all in the middle of the flap

[Vanja #66]

I have observed this 'under-winging' compared to McL/RB, but I don't think it was only for Barcelona, I think it's been the case over many races.

What exactly do you think the issue is ? Is the Ferrari floor tunnel roof lower than the other lead teams ? (asking because after an entire season and a half, heard the drivers talking about 'bouncing' in Barcelona). The amount of throttle lift through T14 was way more than any of the other three top teams.

I thought towards end of 2023 the Ferrari floor was beautifully working.
Puzzling.

As we are comparing different cars, I'm moving this conversation to appropriate thread

Things are very nuanced when it comes to wings between those 3 teams. I'll just stick to comparing Ferrari and RB and I'll make a couple of assumptions on bodywork drag to later use it to compare wing level

- Ferrari launch spec bodywork was higher drag than RB (fairly conclusive)
- RB Japan update cut drag in undercut and added drag with upper inlets, net zero gain (fairly conclusive)
- Ferrari Imola bodywork cut their drag down to RB level (verified by Monaco and Canada Q Top Speeds on comparable wing levels)
- Both Ferrari and RB improved drag with Barcelona updates and remained on equal level (only one weekend to compare for now, but seems a good guess)

Now if we return this to wing level comparisons, we still have a difference with beam wings which are impossible to evaluate by eyes alone, but we are here to speculate... We have a few notes regarding wings to add:

- Ferrari mid-load RW (races 1-7 + Canada) is a fraction less loaded than RB mid-load RW (races 1, 4, 5, 9)
- Ferrari mid-high load RW (race 10) is slightly bigger than RB mid-load RW and smaller than RB high-load (races 8+10)
- RB low-mid-load RW (races 2, 3, 6, 7) is less loaded than Ferrari mid-load of course

So now when we take this into account and compare Q Top Speeds the situation on wing/aero load in my view is like this (do note different ride heights mean different floor aero map and using exact same wings can still cause variations in Top Speed). Wing load levels:

- Bahrain, R1: Ferrari = RB
- Jeddah, R2: Ferrari > RB
- Australia, R3: Ferrari > RB
- Suzuka, R4: Ferrari = RB
- China, R5: Ferrari = RB
- Miami, R6: Ferrari = RB
- Imola, R7: Ferrari > RB
- Monaco, R8: Ferrari = RB
- Canada, R9: Ferrari = RB
- Barcelona, R10: Ferrari < RB

(this was probably the most unnecessarily detailed analysis I ever made here )

From everything we've seen so far, Ferrari had less wing than RB only in Barcelona, both visibly and judging from Top Speed figures. McLaren was something similar to Ferrari because they had bigger rear wing but smaller beam wing. I guess they worked their floor less than Ferrari and RB because of that, allowing Norris a bit softer suspension to attack those curbs (but it's probably something else with suspension setup along with that)

With Barcelona update, Ferrari lowered the front/inlet tunnel roof quite visibly and this means increasing raw floor downforce, which has to be handled very carefully since all cars are running very low after 2023 floor edge and throat height increase. RB had to reduce wing levels in Australia and Imola to accommodate floor performance and acceptable ride quality.

Ferrari confirmed their setup wasn't optimal in Barcelona Q and R and formu1a.uno reports they simply raised their car after FP3 because they were afraid of bouncing in the race and you shouldn't change too many things between FP3 and Q1 because you can't afford to make a setup mistake. In spite of that, Leclerc was only slower than Lando in stints 2 and 3 and practically matched Verstappen.

[venkyhere]

I have observed this 'under-winging' compared to McL/RB, but I don't think it was only for Barcelona, I think it's been the case over many races.

What exactly do you think the issue is ? Is the Ferrari floor tunnel roof lower than the other lead teams ? (asking because after an entire season and a half, heard the drivers talking about 'bouncing' in Barcelona). The amount of throttle lift through T14 was way more than any of the other three top teams.

I thought towards end of 2023 the Ferrari floor was beautifully working.
Puzzling.

As we are comparing different cars, I'm moving this conversation to appropriate thread

Things are very nuanced when it comes to wings between those 3 teams. I'll just stick to comparing Ferrari and RB and I'll make a couple of assumptions on bodywork drag to later use it to compare wing level

- Ferrari launch spec bodywork was higher drag than RB (fairly conclusive)
- RB Japan update cut drag in undercut and added drag with upper inlets, net zero gain (fairly conclusive)
- Ferrari Imola bodywork cut their drag down to RB level (verified by Monaco and Canada Q Top Speeds on comparable wing levels)
- Both Ferrari and RB improved drag with Barcelona updates and remained on equal level (only one weekend to compare for now, but seems a good guess)

Now if we return this to wing level comparisons, we still have a difference with beam wings which are impossible to evaluate by eyes alone, but we are here to speculate... We have a few notes regarding wings to add:

- Ferrari mid-load RW (races 1-7 + Canada) is a fraction less loaded than RB mid-load RW (races 1, 4, 5, 9)
- Ferrari mid-high load RW (race 10) is slightly bigger than RB mid-load RW and smaller than RB high-load (races 8+10)
- RB low-mid-load RW (races 2, 3, 6, 7) is less loaded than Ferrari mid-load of course

So now when we take this into account and compare Q Top Speeds the situation on wing/aero load in my view is like this (do note different ride heights mean different floor aero map and using exact same wings can still cause variations in Top Speed). Wing load levels:

- Bahrain, R1: Ferrari = RB
- Jeddah, R2: Ferrari > RB
- Australia, R3: Ferrari > RB
- Suzuka, R4: Ferrari = RB
- China, R5: Ferrari = RB
- Miami, R6: Ferrari = RB
- Imola, R7: Ferrari > RB
- Monaco, R8: Ferrari = RB
- Canada, R9: Ferrari = RB
- Barcelona, R10: Ferrari < RB

Ok, so that means my 'reading' of wings was wrong - most probably because I am misled by the shape differences across bottom and flap ; and thus am interpreting incorrectly. To me, it always seemed that Ferrari were superior with top speed always, sacrificing corners, and that is colouring my interpretation.

Please fill in the "?" wherever applicable, the relative loads on the RW profiles (many of them do no exist) :

Ferrari high-load RW ? RB high-load RW
Ferrari mid-high-load RW > RB mid-high-load RW
Ferrari mid-load RW < RB mid-load RW
Ferrari low-mid-load RW ? RB low-mid-load RW
Ferrari low-load RW ? RB low-load RW

(this was probably the most unnecessarily detailed analysis I ever made here )

definitely not, it's very useful, most of all to an aero novice like me.

From everything we've seen so far, Ferrari had less wing than RB only in Barcelona, both visibly and judging from Top Speed figures. McLaren was something similar to Ferrari because they had bigger rear wing but smaller beam wing. I guess they worked their floor less than Ferrari and RB because of that, allowing Norris a bit softer suspension to attack those curbs (but it's probably something else with suspension setup along with that)

With Barcelona update, Ferrari lowered the front/inlet tunnel roof quite visibly and this means increasing raw floor downforce, which has to be handled very carefully since all cars are running very low after 2023 floor edge and throat height increase. RB had to reduce wing levels in Australia and Imola to accommodate floor performance and acceptable ride quality.

Ferrari confirmed their setup wasn't optimal in Barcelona Q and R and formu1a.uno reports they simply raised their car after FP3 because they were afraid of bouncing in the race and you shouldn't change too many things between FP3 and Q1 because you can't afford to make a setup mistake. In spite of that, Leclerc was only slower than Lando in stints 2 and 3 and practically matched Verstappen.

From your summary, can I infer that the guy who is extracting the most raw DF from floor is RedBull and the least is McLaren (amongst the three) and Ferrari floor is somewhere in the middle (ride height corrected of course) ? BEFORE BARCELONA, that is. Post which, Ferrari has surpassed Redbull.
Which in turn is influencing the stiffness choice for suspension in exactly the opposite way - stiffest being Redbull and softest being McLaren, and Ferrari in the middle ?

[Vanja #66]

Please fill in the "?" wherever applicable, the relative loads on the RW profiles (many of them do no exist) :

Ferrari high-load RW ? RB high-load RW
Ferrari mid-high-load RW > RB mid-high-load RW
Ferrari mid-load RW < RB mid-load RW
Ferrari low-mid-load RW ? RB low-mid-load RW
Ferrari low-load RW ? RB low-load RW

Ferrari high-load RW > RB high-load RW (Monaco as direct comparison, RB20 suffered poor traction most likely, hence 1kmh lower Top Speed in Q)

Ferrari mid-high-load RW =/= RB mid-high-load RW is not used since 2022

Ferrari mid-load RW < RB mid-load RW (small difference, but it exists in my view)

Ferrari low-mid-load RW is not used since 2023 =/= RB low-mid-load RW (this Ferrari RW was used as mid-load wing in 2023 and they might introduce a new spec of this level later in the season)

Ferrari low-load RW is not used since 2023 =/= RB low-load RW is not used since 2023 (this RB wing was used in Monza and Vegas and is the low-mid-load spec with trimmed flap)

From your summary, can I infer that the guy who is extracting the most raw DF from floor is RedBull and the least is McLaren (amongst the three) and Ferrari floor is somewhere in the middle (ride height corrected of course) ? BEFORE BARCELONA, that is. Post which, Ferrari has surpassed Redbull.
Which in turn is influencing the stiffness choice for suspension in exactly the opposite way - stiffest being Redbull and softest being McLaren, and Ferrari in the middle ?

I wouldn't draw any definitive conclusions right now to be honest.

I think (and this is just a gut guess) RB20 floor is still generating the most downforce and always useful and stable in all conditions. The car is limited by excess (front end mostly it seems) stiffness and this forces drivers to take less aggressive lines over curbs not to upset the car.

MCL38 is either matching RB20 floor or is very, very close to it. Beam wings highly influence these floors (since Top 3 cars are so close) and this is something that makes it hard to make a direct comparison based on limited data we have.

SF24 new floor is an unknown since it didn't yet show it's full potential. We might see better performance in low ride heights in Silverstone

[venkyhere]

Here's something which I don't find discussed much in the forum :

What tyre pressures are the different cars running, surely they can't all be running the same, Pirelli only specifies a minimum pressure for each race. While it goes without saying that a lower pressure means bigger contact patch, it may still be a tradeoff game where there might be a benefit to running higher than the minimal specified pressure - less overheating and stiffer cornering.

Want to know if anyone has any data on this, or thoughts in general.

[djos]

Here's something which I don't find discussed much in the forum :

What tyre pressures are the different cars running, surely they can't all be running the same, FIA only specifies a minimum pressure for each race. While it goes without saying that a lower pressure means bigger contact patch, it may still be a tradeoff game where there might be a benefit to running higher than the minimal specified pressure - less overheating and stiffer cornering.

Want to know if anyone has any data on this, or thoughts in general.

They all run the minimum - the minimum is there because teams ran lower pressures than Pirelli recommended, which led to some tire failures. The FIA introduced the minimum pressure rules at pirelli’s request on safety grounds.

[AR3-GP]

I don't think they all run the minimum. In Canada, with the inters, Mclaren ran higher (or was it lower?) pressures than the others.

Also, teams use differences in tire pressure, front to rear, to affect the balance of the car during the qualifying sessions. This could also apply during the races. It might just be that someone wants to run too low on one of the axles, or both, but still with a differential front to rear to help balance.

[venkyhere]

I don't think they all run the minimum. In Canada, with the inters, Mclaren ran higher (or was it lower?) pressures than the others.

Also, teams use differences in tire pressure, front to rear, to affect the balance of the car during the qualifying sessions. This could also apply during the races. It might just be that someone wants to run too low on one of the axles, or both, but still with a differential front to rear to help balance.

Pirelli specifies different min.pressure for front and rear tyres separately. Since the limit is only on one side, I am almost sure that teams explore (this is F1 they are bound to explore every single opportunity) the freedom on pressures above the specified value, left v/s right difference even, suited for specific tracks.

My question, however, is whether anyone has access to 'data' about this, from even one team ?
Also, looking for any member who can provide technical insights (just out of curiosity) into what is the nature of grip v/s deg v/s graining tradeoffs applied, say for example, by keeping +0.5psi or +1.0psi, on which axle, for what track temperature.... Basically, looking for a crude understanding of the 'knowledge' behind tuning tyre pressures and what is the advantage(limitation) a team is looking to achieve(address), when their pressures are different to other teams.

Because, apart from suspension stiffness & aero load, the tyre pressure must have a big say in determining the 'deg' a car suffers over a stint. My line of questioning stems from how, despite running more (visual) load than the MCL38, the RB20 is suffering more deg. I suspect whether limitation on ride height sensitivity plays a role in determining tyre pressure and ultimately the deg.

[AR3-GP]

Edit: ATP period is only 2 months. So there are 3 of them in the second half of the year. These differences are tripled over the next 6 months.

[ispano6]

A nice read on the flexi-wings purportedly contributing to Mercedes and McLaren's turn of form.

https://www.planetf1.com/features/uncov ... es-mclaren

One thing these designs are reminding are of the spoon tip front wings of 2005-6 cars and with the changes Mercedes has made to their front wing leading edge gap, in my mind, shows how they could be using the flexible nature of the main plane to act as a sort of leaf spring type mass damper.

Tightening the gap could be a form of controlling the damping and rebound response.

[AR3-GP]

[venkyhere]

The McLaren gearbox formfactor must be genius - enables the thinnest keel of all