Flexiwings 2024

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
peewon
3
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 03:11

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

SiLo wrote:
27 Jun 2024, 10:47

I'm certain I can find evidence of most teams on the grid doing something similar. Every single team has a flexing front wing (as much as Red Bull want us to believe otherwise). Here is an example of Ferrari also doing similar things. Calling Mercedes out has having ideas that are legal and allowed first seems harsh, they have one of the best design teams on the grid, of course they are going to push the boundaries of what is legal, and they ARE legal. If they weren't the FIA would ban them, much like they have done in the past with DAS, oil burning etc. It's easy to find evidence to fit your narrative because all the teams on the grid try this stuff, we just hear less about it from bottom teams because it doesn't really impact the championship in anyway, and they generally don't have the capacity or tools to develop grey area aerodynamics.
Ferrari copied Mercedes for that. The rear wing AM made was also legal. It was specifically outlawed on the basis of it creating turbulent air and thus violating the 'spirit of the regulation'. Like they came out and said this. AM's front wing last season would also pass all legality checks. The ride height fiasco was the biggest giveaway of preferential treatment. One team struggles to make their cars work and FIA sabotage their own regulations.
SiLo wrote:
27 Jun 2024, 10:47
Plus, there has been a clear shift in penalties from 2023 onwards with much harsher ones being awarded this year. Hamilton not getting penalties in 2022 doesn't really prove anything, he's had plenty of them from the FIA over the years while driving a Mercedes.
I would buy this argument if Russell had been just as harshly penalized in Japan for divebombing Piastri and making significant contact. In fact there was no action taken. Its completely inconsistent.
SiLo wrote:
27 Jun 2024, 10:47
The Wolff & FIA fiasco turned to the courts because the FIA handled it like a bunch of morons, not because they are in the pocket of Mercedes. The issue wasn't that the FIA said they would "look into it", but that they did so with zero communication to Wolff, or other F1 parties. All the F1 teams even made a statement in support of this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68615850
Again Mercedes didnt go after FIA, they went after one person, Ben Sulayem. Its obvious to anyone with an ounce of critical thinking that they want this guy removed. Probably because hes the spanner in the works for them. Filing legal action over a nothing 2 day "we'll look into it" process doesnt make any sense. If anyone she should have been mad at the tabloid. There is absolutely no mention of anything that the FIA did thats egregious. Just vague ranting to create the desired headlines. This is why his past statements were also brought up. To drum up public sentiment for hi removal.

Remember when Toto knew exactly how many teams were going to be punished in the cost cap scandal before any official news? These guys are in balls deep with the FIA.

User avatar
SiLo
138
Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

peewon wrote:
27 Jun 2024, 19:53
Ferrari copied Mercedes for that. The rear wing AM made was also legal. It was specifically outlawed on the basis of it creating turbulent air and thus violating the 'spirit of the regulation'. Like they came out and said this. AM's front wing last season would also pass all legality checks. The ride height fiasco was the biggest giveaway of preferential treatment. One team struggles to make their cars work and FIA sabotage their own regulations.
The ride height fiasco supported by multiple teams and drivers? You're just regurgitating what the press smashed into everyone's faces for weeks because it was easy clicks and generated rage induced engagement.
peewon wrote:
27 Jun 2024, 19:53
I would buy this argument if Russell had been just as harshly penalized in Japan for divebombing Piastri and making significant contact. In fact there was no action taken. Its completely inconsistent.
The Stewards being inconsistent has been a thing for years, you will find hundreds of posts about it on this very forum.
peewon wrote:
27 Jun 2024, 19:53
Again Mercedes didnt go after FIA, they went after one person, Ben Sulayem. Its obvious to anyone with an ounce of critical thinking that they want this guy removed. Probably because hes the spanner in the works for them. Filing legal action over a nothing 2 day "we'll look into it" process doesnt make any sense. If anyone she should have been mad at the tabloid. There is absolutely no mention of anything that the FIA did thats egregious. Just vague ranting to create the desired headlines. This is why his past statements were also brought up. To drum up public sentiment for hi removal.
Wolff not liking BS is well know, but it's not like BS is doing wonders for this sport. Whether Wolff is acting specifically in his own self interest or at least, some of the sport is yet to be seen, but BS has not been a good appointment (see here). Their response to the FIA launching an investigation with no communication was fair. Trivialising it by calling it a "nothing 2 day we will look into it process" is wide of the mark.
peewon wrote:
27 Jun 2024, 19:53
Remember when Toto knew exactly how many teams were going to be punished in the cost cap scandal before any official news? These guys are in balls deep with the FIA.
A Team Principle knowing information that the public are not privvy to? Colour me shocked. I believe Zak Brown also made allusions to this but I notice you didn't include him either.

I won't respond anymore, your bias is clear.
Felipe Baby!

Rikhart
Rikhart
19
Joined: 10 Feb 2009, 20:21

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

Image

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

This thread is nothing compared to 2011. I know the regulations barely allow any flamboyant car designs othe than the side pods , but you guys are really nitpicking now.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

User avatar
chrisc90
41
Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

We need to discuss the changes Merc did to that wing 3-4 races ago...

KimiRai
KimiRai
254
Joined: 10 Aug 2022, 20:08

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

chrisc90 wrote:
06 Jul 2024, 17:16
We need to discuss the changes Merc did to that wing 3-4 races ago...
Or Aston this weekend :wink:

User avatar
majki2111
5
Joined: 14 May 2013, 10:54
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

I might be boring, but nevertheless I'll still ask. Regarding this concept of flexiwings. I asked something similar 1 year ago. Do teams use some kind of plots when designing this stuff. We in faculty learnt regular stress-strain plots when describing a material.

Maybe something with flexural strength in relation to certain parameter. Are they maybe using degrees of deflection in relation to speed or acceleration? I didn't study aero stuff so I don't know any relations regarding that field.

Would someone with masters degree in material engineering and no experience in autosport industry be able to understood what they are doing with this phenomena?

User avatar
majki2111
5
Joined: 14 May 2013, 10:54
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
06 Jul 2024, 13:57
This thread is nothing compared to 2011. I know the regulations barely allow any flamboyant car designs othe than the side pods , but you guys are really nitpicking now.
I was thinking the same thing. I remember 2011 was also something about flexing front wings. I was 14 years old back then. What was purpose of those wings? I remember something about generating Y250 vortex, am I right? Is it the similar now?

Watto
Watto
4
Joined: 10 Mar 2022, 15:12

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

majki2111 wrote:
07 Jul 2024, 11:34
I might be boring, but nevertheless I'll still ask. Regarding this concept of flexiwings. I asked something similar 1 year ago. Do teams use some kind of plots when designing this stuff. We in faculty learnt regular stress-strain plots when describing a material.

Maybe something with flexural strength in relation to certain parameter. Are they maybe using degrees of deflection in relation to speed or acceleration? I didn't study aero stuff so I don't know any relations regarding that field.

Would someone with masters degree in material engineering and no experience in autosport industry be able to understood what they are doing with this phenomena?

From memory - and there are probably better people to answer this. - a lot had to do with how they layered the carbon fiber. The sheeds have (or can have?) a grain a bit like wood where is flexes, laying it in certain ways can create flex under the right conditions depending on how the layer it all together if that makes sense. Probably an under simplification but think thats the jist of it,

So I would say yes someone with those kinds of qualifications could understand what is happening - as I know it anyway.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
638
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

that sounds like what you can ...
read all about in any description of the X 29 (airplane)
tailored elasticity
(as in bias cut tailoring)

or look for the original threads on this site

KimiRai
KimiRai
254
Joined: 10 Aug 2022, 20:08

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

KimiRai wrote:
12 Jul 2024, 20:32
Silverstone AM front wing


AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

To my eye, even the mainplane with the "Cognizant" written on it is twisting back and reducing AoA.
Last edited by AR3-GP on 13 Jul 2024, 14:18, edited 1 time in total.
A lion must kill its prey.

Waz
Waz
1
Joined: 03 Mar 2024, 09:29

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

That doesn't even look excessive on the AM. I was expecting a bit more of twist to simulate the outwash bend from last year.

The question regarding plot points was really interesting to me. The only thing ever discussed has been the direction of layup on the carbon. But I have worked in manufacturing with carbon fibre, and I can't understand how that makes such a big difference, so more information on how CF flexes and maintains rigidity would be awesome

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
638
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

Waz wrote:
13 Jul 2024, 12:36
.... The only thing ever discussed has been the direction of layup on the carbon. But I have worked in manufacturing with carbon fibre, and I can't understand how that makes such a big difference, so more information on how CF flexes and maintains rigidity would be awesome
https://aerospaceengineeringblog.com/ae ... mman-x-29/

User avatar
TFSA
2
Joined: 30 Jul 2023, 06:06

Re: Flexiwings 2024

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
12 Jul 2024, 22:02
To my eye, even the mainplane with the "Cognizant" written on it is twisting back and reducing AoA.
That's expected though. There's always gonna be some flex. It's not the mainplane that's the concern here. The biggest flex is always going to happen on the upper elements of the wing, because those are only loosely connected in comparison, but they also have a higher AoA - so that's where you can get the largest drag reduction with flex.