2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

[Tvetovnato]

I’m doubtful they’ll change a thing but imho the overtaking rule and moving under braking are either bad rules or terribly policed or both.

Fixing these 2 would do wonders for the sport. I’m definitely not good enough to know how to fix overtaking, although IMHO an improvement would be to grant rights to the car behind from when the axles overlap rather than when it becomes the car ahead at the apex. This could eliminate any forceful push off and reduce the dive bomb incentive. For the moving under braking, just penalize it, give a black and white flag the first time and 10s the 2nd time.

I would love to see point marked on the track (a white line) that starts from the braking point, all the way covering exit of the apex. Any defensive move crossing that line is prohibited. A defending driver has to take a position and stay on one side of the line. If a white line excursion is penalized for entry and exit of pit lane, then this could be as well.

https://i.postimg.cc/RhRdc4PY/i-Markup- ... 071239.jpg

What was the point of Norris going on the outside? I am not sure any line from there is a good/faster out of it.
To me it looked like Norris was committed to doing dive bombs just didn't matter if it was on the inside or outside.

I was surprised that he did not get a penalty for the previous attempt which was exactly what Hulk did and got penalized in the sprint race.

He was setting up for a switchback to get a better exit than Max.

[basti313]

I’m doubtful they’ll change a thing but imho the overtaking rule and moving under braking are either bad rules or terribly policed or both.

Fixing these 2 would do wonders for the sport. I’m definitely not good enough to know how to fix overtaking, although IMHO an improvement would be to grant rights to the car behind from when the axles overlap rather than when it becomes the car ahead at the apex. This could eliminate any forceful push off and reduce the dive bomb incentive. For the moving under braking, just penalize it, give a black and white flag the first time and 10s the 2nd time.

I would love to see point marked on the track (a white line) that starts from the braking point, all the way covering exit of the apex. Any defensive move crossing that line is prohibited. A defending driver has to take a position and stay on one side of the line. If a white line excursion is penalized for entry and exit of pit lane, then this could be as well.

https://i.postimg.cc/RhRdc4PY/i-Markup- ... 071239.jpg

What was the point of Norris going on the outside? I am not sure any line from there is a good/faster out of it.
To me it looked like Norris was committed to doing dive bombs just didn't matter if it was on the inside or outside.

I was surprised that he did not get a penalty for the previous attempt which was exactly what Hulk did and got penalized in the sprint race.

Well, also in the sprint it was not penalized for both of them. There it was ok, as both send it in a borderline way...

Yesterday I was also a bit more on "Verstappen fully blame". But rewatching it I get more your point, while I think you can not dive bomb on the outside, in these cases Verstappen had dirty lines similar to dive bomb lines.
There should be an immediate reaction to these dive bombs, where they can not hold the line and the outside car needs to leave the track. If they go to the inside they should still hold somehow "a line", not out braking themselves.
The attacks by Norris on the outside were a bit on the same point. Similarly to him Verstappen never held the line, but always missed the apex on purpose. This is actually where I see dirty driving and where the current weak ruling on this destroys the race. If they miss the line on purpose or because they dive bombed, they need to give the position up. Like this it would not destroy the fight with penalties.

For the crash itself...Verstappen drifted to the outside, while aiming for the inside curb. I do not see that he deliberately crashed into Norris under braking. That was a simple driving error, correct penalty for this.

I think the problem were the actions before and not the braking itself, more somewhere in the huge grey area where the current race directors allow for this dirty racing. As mentioned by someone before, be it Indycar or GT3, all manage to rule the wheel to wheel racing better then F1 since many years.

[FW17]

I would love to see point marked on the track (a white line) that starts from the braking point, all the way covering exit of the apex. Any defensive move crossing that line is prohibited. A defending driver has to take a position and stay on one side of the line. If a white line excursion is penalized for entry and exit of pit lane, then this could be as well.

https://i.postimg.cc/RhRdc4PY/i-Markup- ... 071239.jpg

What was the point of Norris going on the outside? I am not sure any line from there is a good/faster out of it.
To me it looked like Norris was committed to doing dive bombs just didn't matter if it was on the inside or outside.

I was surprised that he did not get a penalty for the previous attempt which was exactly what Hulk did and got penalized in the sprint race.

He was setting up for a switchback to get a better exit than Max.

How do you do a switchback when you are along side? Switchback is when the leading driver out brakes himself and attacking driver is in control to cut under the leading driver.

What happened in this case, Max was fully in control, would have been ahead at the apex, Norris would have still been hanging it on the outside, but max would have been entitled to run him wide.

[bluechris]

What was the point of Norris going on the outside? I am not sure any line from there is a good/faster out of it.
To me it looked like Norris was committed to doing dive bombs just didn't matter if it was on the inside or outside.

I was surprised that he did not get a penalty for the previous attempt which was exactly what Hulk did and got penalized in the sprint race.

He was setting up for a switchback to get a better exit than Max.

How do you do a switchback when you are along side? Switchback is when the leading driver out brakes himself and attacking driver is in control to cut under the leading driver.

What happened in this case, Max was fully in control, would have been ahead at the apex, Norris would have still been hanging it on the outside, but max would have been entitled to run him wide.

You can switch back if you brake a bit earlier like what max did in 2023 on Sainz but this is not the case yesterday.

[FW17]

I would love to see point marked on the track (a white line) that starts from the braking point, all the way covering exit of the apex. Any defensive move crossing that line is prohibited. A defending driver has to take a position and stay on one side of the line. If a white line excursion is penalized for entry and exit of pit lane, then this could be as well.

https://i.postimg.cc/RhRdc4PY/i-Markup- ... 071239.jpg

What was the point of Norris going on the outside? I am not sure any line from there is a good/faster out of it.
To me it looked like Norris was committed to doing dive bombs just didn't matter if it was on the inside or outside.

I was surprised that he did not get a penalty for the previous attempt which was exactly what Hulk did and got penalized in the sprint race.

Well, also in the sprint it was not penalized for both of them. There it was ok, as both send it in a borderline way...

Yesterday I was also a bit more on "Verstappen fully blame". But rewatching it I get more your point, while I think you can not dive bomb on the outside, in these cases Verstappen had dirty lines similar to dive bomb lines.
There should be an immediate reaction to these dive bombs, where they can not hold the line and the outside car needs to leave the track. If they go to the inside they should still hold somehow "a line", not out braking themselves.
The attacks by Norris on the outside were a bit on the same point. Similarly to him Verstappen never held the line, but always missed the apex on purpose. This is actually where I see dirty driving and where the current weak ruling on this destroys the race. If they miss the line on purpose or because they dive bombed, they need to give the position up. Like this it would not destroy the fight with penalties.

For the crash itself...Verstappen drifted to the outside, while aiming for the inside curb. I do not see that he deliberately crashed into Norris under braking. That was a simple driving error, correct penalty for this.

I think the problem were the actions before and not the braking itself, more somewhere in the huge grey area where the current race directors allow for this dirty racing. As mentioned by someone before, be it Indycar or GT3, all manage to rule the wheel to wheel racing better then F1 since many years.

I think Max's style has caught him out and will be an issue in future races.
His normal style to drive the car for the past few seasons (not sure about 21') has been to brake early, get the best exit. This continues when he is under attack as he wants to get out of the DRS zone and have a few seconds to play with.
While Lewis style has been to late brake in normal race driving, make up time into the corner (his skill) and hope for car to support him on the exit.

Now when Norris and Hamilton attack Verstappen's early braking style, he is kind of defenseless, and needs to retort to some aggressive defense which moves him out of the style that will allow him and car to pull away.

Max when he is on the attack can use his skills to out brake any driver, but he cannot use that style to defend and that does not allow him to establish a gap.

[FW17]

He was setting up for a switchback to get a better exit than Max.

How do you do a switchback when you are along side? Switchback is when the leading driver out brakes himself and attacking driver is in control to cut under the leading driver.

What happened in this case, Max was fully in control, would have been ahead at the apex, Norris would have still been hanging it on the outside, but max would have been entitled to run him wide.

You can switch back if you brake a bit earlier like what max did in 2023 on Sainz but this is not the case yesterday.

What happened yesterday was a pointless dive bomb on the outside, just to send a message.

[Just_a_fan]

How do you do a switchback when you are along side? Switchback is when the leading driver out brakes himself and attacking driver is in control to cut under the leading driver.

What happened in this case, Max was fully in control, would have been ahead at the apex, Norris would have still been hanging it on the outside, but max would have been entitled to run him wide.

You can switch back if you brake a bit earlier like what max did in 2023 on Sainz but this is not the case yesterday.

What happened yesterday was a pointless dive bomb on the outside, just to send a message.

You can't dive bomb someone on the outside. A dive bomb is up the inside to take the inside line from a long way back. Lando did dive bomb earlier in the race and ended up off track on the exit.

Lando was entitled to go where he went. Max was not entitled to drive across in to him. Standard Max move - expect the other driver to do the work to avoid the obvious accident that you're setting up for him.

[Just_a_fan]

- there is no excuse in the world that can justify VER's defense in turns 1,3,4. Members here who are trying to do so, kindly stop. You know the truth. We saw the 17yr old Max back again. This reminds me of footballer Zidane, who used to have episodes of volcanic fuse-blows without warning. People who are amazing with soaking up pressure, when the limit breaches, it can be a terrible release of rage. Gifted genius with a flawed EQ (typically a by product of bad childhood experiences)

- NOR has to hone his racecraft more. Has to realize that the fight for P1 can be far tougher than the fight for P3 or lower places. He made many attempts, but was not decisive. Yes, VER was moving under braking to block, but after 1 or 2 times, NOR should start to anticipate it better and be more decisive. But he is the guy who kept it clean in the dogfight, it wasn't as if NOR forced a collision.

Someone has come up with comparative videos of what I was trying to convey above.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/HJtoTKhzYM

As we can see, 'anticipation' and 'let me use the full track width, it's just inside tyres that's going to matter, not outside ones' awareness is something NOR has to improve upon. He ended up being a sitting duck to an aggressive late door close (or 'crowding' as it seems to be called). Doesn't justify what VER did, but 'learning to avoid a torpedo' is an invaluable skill.

That's called "victim blaming". Lando has every right to be where he is. Max needs to learn not to drive in to people. Sadly, Horner's "let them race" mantra has created the situation where Max has been allowed to do this sort of thing and has never learned to race cleanly. And when he's faced with someone who isn't going to play his games, the result is as it was on Sunday. We're told that Max has matured, well now is the time for him to prove it by improving his driving around others in these situations.

[Vanja #66]

Someone has come up with comparative videos of what I was trying to convey above.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/HJtoTKhzYM

As we can see, 'anticipation' and 'let me use the full track width, it's just inside tyres that's going to matter, not outside ones' awareness is something NOR has to improve upon. He ended up being a sitting duck to an aggressive late door close (or 'crowding' as it seems to be called). Doesn't justify what VER did, but 'learning to avoid a torpedo' is an invaluable skill.

I didn't even pay attention to how much space Norris had on the outside, thanks for sharing. He knowingly stuck to his line to cause a contact, bet he didn't have an idea how bad it would end for him. Max broke the rules for switching back under braking several times, but in this situation both drivers are equally to blame for that contact, no doubt.

In road traffic, you are required to do everything you can to avoid an incident, which is why people brake hard and get on the horn so much. In racing, you stick to your line knowing it can cause a contact - you find out. Hitting Max with front wing afterwards was also a bit too much in my view

[SiLo]

I'd rather the rule be simple, like you must leave a cars width at all times. You can't move across and crowd someone out at any point, and you can't dive bomb and stop another car from making the corner.

If you get overtaken on the outside because you left a cars width as required, then fair play, you just have to deal with it. Right now though, it's better to do everything to stop the overtake and watch the other car quickly ruin their tyres and fall back.

[FW17]

I find it funny that rules against moving while on brakes exist. It looks like it is heavily influenced by lesser drivers and Team Principals of lesser drivers to have this rule brought in. Both cars have a steering wheel, but the lesser drivers have know clue of how to use it when on the brake pedal.

It is like their brain works the left leg or their hands and not both.

[chrisc90]

Technically if you include the kerb aswell as part of the track, Norris had a full cars width to ply with.

Considering he would have only been forced off the track if his right hand wheels crossed the white line on the entry to turn 3.

[FittingMechanics]

The Stewards are the ones responsible for Lando missing out on a win in my opinion.

The very first time Max cut from one side of the track to the other deep in the braking g zone, it should have been an immediate black and white flag as its both dangerous and destroys the ability for racing to occur.

But instead, he is repeatedly allowed to get away with it until it inevitably causes a race ending incident.

We are supposed to be beyond the stage where the FIA are going g to be asked to bring in new rules just to make one driver follow safe racing standards.

He's supposed to be past this crap by now, and the Stewards are supposed to be past treating him with kid gloves.

Well said. This collision happened because stewards are not enforcing the rule (no moving under braking).

But the interesting thing is that Norris did not end up crashing into Verstappen, this would have been almost expected as if Verstappen moves infront of you while braking, you easily crash into his rear. But no, Norris kept it clean and managed to fool Verstappen in defending the inside but then Verstappen moves back and crashes into Verstappen.

The stewards need to start enforcing these rules or we will see even more chaos and more race ending incidents when one side doesn't want to let other through. On a positive, McLaren has two drivers that can fight for wins, Red Bull has one. Let's see who can crash more.

The road rage incidents in the previous race should have been punished as well. Stewarding is really bad right now.

[basti313]

I'd rather the rule be simple, like you must leave a cars width at all times. You can't move across and crowd someone out at any point, and you can't dive bomb and stop another car from making the corner.

If you get overtaken on the outside because you left a cars width as required, then fair play, you just have to deal with it. Right now though, it's better to do everything to stop the overtake and watch the other car quickly ruin their tyres and fall back.

Well, but tomorrow someone again defends this...the whole nonsense started in F1 with Ros vs. Ham, where Mercedes started to make up the rules. Now we have some bull$--- with who is ahead at the apex...
I never understood where the issue is with leaving space on the outside.

Hitting Max with front wing afterwards was also a bit too much in my view

Naaahhh...come on. Both tried to stay on the track and Ver suddenly had to use the "exit" before the sausage curb because of the blown tire (oversteer snap). Clearly a incident where noone wanted it and it just came together badly because of the blown tire.

[michl420]

I'd rather the rule be simple, like you must leave a cars width at all times. You can't move across and crowd someone out at any point, and you can't dive bomb and stop another car from making the corner.

If you get overtaken on the outside because you left a cars width as required, then fair play, you just have to deal with it. Right now though, it's better to do everything to stop the overtake and watch the other car quickly ruin their tyres and fall back.

I see it the same way. PER pushed PIA off and no penatly is wrong.VES overtoke NOR on the outside exactly like HAM SAI in lap 1, but different punishment is wrong. They give VES a warning for moving under braking, he did it again, than penaltly, is right. But VES is still the winner of the game. It is all over 2021 again with VES. Frustrating.