2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[LionsHeart]

And now, when there is even a rule that it is forbidden to move during the braking phase, Max continues to do the same. Lando was extremely unhappy about this. Lando acted professionally and honestly, but Max did not know how to defend himself honestly and still does not know how. Why the judges did not warn Max remains a mystery. Lando made it clear on the radio that such driving could lead to an accident, which is what happened in the end. Max constantly moved towards Lando during braking, no matter from which side he was attacked. He was constantly worried about Lando divebombing, although he himself did exactly the same thing the day before against Lando himself in Turn 4.

In the previous post I selected only a few messages. The resource is Russian, but there is only a text link to a foreign source Motorsport. There is no original link. But the text of the comments is completely correct. All this was in 2016!

Those who try to stand up for Max are either the same idiots, or simply don't know how to honestly admit defeat like Max. And by the way, Max has already lost morally to Lando. At least in this regard, Max is much weaker, because he never admits defeat.

[Ben1980]

That Nico move and the Lando move are quite different. Look at the car in comparison to the actual corner. Not really comparable.

[BMMR61]

Having replayed the whole race and particular attention to the contact there isn't any grey area for Max to escape serious censure from the stewards. McLaren reported the continuous movements under braking and it was never formally noted by the stewards, this usually results in the team issuing their own warning to their driver. The whole thing was treated leniently in the extreme. Oscar's "limits" penalty was punished fully, whether it was supported by clear evidence or not. Max has been getting away with it so much as we know but his car has been so superior for a couple of years that he hasn't had to resort to the extreme measures. Daniel got a lot of abuse by fans for leaving the Verstappen/Red Bull team but it was sealed after Baku 2018, the same moving in the braking zone that took both drivers out. That also went unpunished when it was clearly moving in the braking zone, if not double move. Stella is right, and it's a very astute approach to the disaster McLaren has had to accept.

[BMMR61]

On a positive note, Lando has put so much pressure on Max that he cracked under the pressure. It was a mistake by Max whichever way you look at it. More pressure required.

[LionsHeart]

Having replayed the whole race and particular attention to the contact there isn't any grey area for Max to escape serious censure from the stewards. McLaren reported the continuous movements under braking and it was never formally noted by the stewards, this usually results in the team issuing their own warning to their driver. The whole thing was treated leniently in the extreme. Oscar's "limits" penalty was punished fully, whether it was supported by clear evidence or not. Max has been getting away with it so much as we know but his car has been so superior for a couple of years that he hasn't had to resort to the extreme measures. Daniel got a lot of abuse by fans for leaving the Verstappen/Red Bull team but it was sealed after Baku 2018, the same moving in the braking zone that took both drivers out. That also went unpunished when it was clearly moving in the braking zone, if not double move. Stella is right, and it's a very astute approach to the disaster McLaren has had to accept.

This can be described as double standards. The stewards did not get involved because they do not want to take responsibility when there is a fight for victory. Max took out Lewis many times in Brazil 2021 and at the same time Max himself went off the track, but did not give up his position. This is called dirty fighting, which goes beyond the rules included in the sporting regulations. Max could have been disqualified for one race for dangerous driving a long time ago. But the stewards have no balls.

[FittingMechanics]

I think Lando has probably learnt a important lesson on racing Max today... Lets see how this progresses now

Leclerc got his awakening on the same track funnily enough.

Agreed. They need to understand that Max may be their "friend" off the track but on the track he is ruthless as can be. It's easy to laugh about it when he is 1s faster and you let him pass but now Norris got a big lesson in both sprint and the race.

It just makes no sense. He is the only high caliber driver that does this. Waits for you to make a move and either squeezes you off or completely runs you off the track.

That's not how you race anyone. A shame really. I thought he had matured from 2021 but it doesn't seem to be the case.

Unless FIA gets more strict about moving under braking, he will continue to do this.

Exactly. The problem I have with this race is not that the incident occured, but that Verstappen will not learn from it. His illegal blocks and moving under braking meant that Norris was forced into risky divebombs. You can't overtake someone if he moves under braking every time you line up. It's bound to force you into a divebomb and then it's a crash if the other drivers wants to.

Lando forced the collision by doing these dive-bombs and running off track. But max also was wrong to move on the brakes etc

It's similar to Monza 2021 wherein both drivers needed to be going over the limit in the events leading to the collision, but one driver was more at fault. In each case stewards deemed Max to be predominantly at fault.

I think Lando will learn from this and ultimately they might not end up friends sadly. Max will always race at the limit

Well said but the issue is that the way Verstappen defended meant Norris had to make a risky move. But even that was not the crash, Norris kept the car in control during his divebombs and Verstappen didn't let them crash. The crash happened one time Norris managed to fool Verstappen in going to defend the inside while Norris came alongside them. Then Verstappen moves back to the left which causes the collision. Without that move to the left Verstappen probably exits the corner slower than Norris and Norris goes to T4 in P1 where I bet we would see a Verstappen divebomb to the inside like in sprint, but hopefully Norris would know to defend the inside.

Just caught up with the race, Max's moving under brakes should've been penalised 3 moves ago

They should have warned him about it as a start. But since they are ignoring it we will see this happen again.

[LionsHeart]

On a positive note, Lando has put so much pressure on Max that he cracked under the pressure. It was a mistake by Max whichever way you look at it. More pressure required.

Max also locked his wheels in Turn 4 because he was under pressure. And Lando quickly entered the DRS zone. Lando is definitely stronger than Max. This was proven back in iRacing. There they also collided many times and Max is also unyielding there. So Lando knows Max's driving style very well. It is not for us to teach Lando. He knows his opponent very well.

If Max is not penalized for drifting in the braking zone, then Lando will do the same. And if the stewards decide to penalize Lando for this, then if I were Lando, I would simply leave Formula 1.

[FittingMechanics]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that McLaren lost a victory today due to two unfair, dangerous moves by both Red Bulls.

First Perez ran Piastri wide in T4 at the start of the race which lost Piastri couple of places and probably 5-10 seconds in race time. Without that forcing wide Piastri would have beaten Russel for P3 and then inherited the victory. A shame really, it would be karma if Piastri managed to win after Verstappen crashed into Norris.

Second was Verstappen clearly moving left to force Norris wide. He probably didn't mean to hit Norris but he wanted to force him wide (again). It's really frustrating to race against a driver like him.

On other hand, I was in the grandstands and it was great to see McLaren on track fighting for the win. I wasn't that disappointed in the result but it would have been special to see Norris overtake Verstappen on track for the victory. Coming back to the forum and internet I am really saddened to see how many people are trying to justify what Verstappen did. Even if Norris did some divebombs, that doesn't mean you can go and hit a car alongside you.

[LionsHeart]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that McLaren lost a victory today due to two unfair, dangerous moves by both Red Bulls.

First Perez ran Piastri wide in T4 at the start of the race which lost Piastri couple of places and probably 5-10 seconds in race time. Without that forcing wide Piastri would have beaten Russel for P3 and then inherited the victory. A shame really, it would be karma if Piastri managed to win after Verstappen crashed into Norris.

Second was Verstappen clearly moving left to force Norris wide. He probably didn't mean to hit Norris but he wanted to force him wide (again). It's really frustrating to race against a driver like him.

On other hand, I was in the grandstands and it was great to see McLaren on track fighting for the win. I wasn't that disappointed in the result but it would have been special to see Norris overtake Verstappen on track for the victory. Coming back to the forum and internet I am really saddened to see how many people are trying to justify what Verstappen did. Even if Norris did some divebombs, that doesn't mean you can go and hit a car alongside you.

Oh, it's great that you saw the race in real life!
There are no excuses for Max. Such a race should simply be forgotten as a bad dream or a nightmare.

[FittingMechanics]

What's important, but being lost, is that Max was punished strongly for squeezing Lando. The stewards agreed that it was not fair racing and this is different to times in the past.
The outcome might have affected Lando more than Max in this situation, but the marker has been laid down that squeezing a driver like that and not leaving a cars width will be punished.

For Mclaren and for good racing in the future, this is not a small matter as two markers have been laid.

The first, is that Lando will not back out so easily under Over The Top aggression, so you are as likely to come off worse as you are better.
The second is that consistency not withstanding, Max will have to be more careful with these types of move in the future or face sanction.

So despite the disappointing end to Lando's race, there is a silver lining to this cloud.

He wasn't punished for squeezing, he was punished for the crash.

And the punishment was inconsequential. He had a big gap to the car behind and the punishment meant nothing. I think FIA should really think about making changes to the penalty system to be able to convert some of the penalties into track position penalties or penalties in the next race. What deterrence is a penalty if it doesn't affect the outcome?

Imagine if Piastri in Monaco decided to cut the chicane and then storm away from Leclerc? Would he get a 5 second penalty for gaining and advantage? Would Norris get just a 5 second penalty if he overtook Verstappen on track and steamed ahead? Not sure that is good for the sport. Either force them to give back the position or make it that penalties can be moved toward the next race - so that it has an effect.

[BMMR61]

Great that we saw some fantastic racing at the head of the field. Sad that Max brought back the tactics he used to use as last resort. He channels pressure into extreme tactics quite similar to Schumie. I reiterate that the aftermath of the contact where Max swerved after Lando to stop him going past his damaged car was another offence against the rules. Horner encourages aggression from the pits and is actually a very deceitful character.

[mwillems]

What's important, but being lost, is that Max was punished strongly for squeezing Lando. The stewards agreed that it was not fair racing and this is different to times in the past.
The outcome might have affected Lando more than Max in this situation, but the marker has been laid down that squeezing a driver like that and not leaving a cars width will be punished.

For Mclaren and for good racing in the future, this is not a small matter as two markers have been laid.

The first, is that Lando will not back out so easily under Over The Top aggression, so you are as likely to come off worse as you are better.
The second is that consistency not withstanding, Max will have to be more careful with these types of move in the future or face sanction.

So despite the disappointing end to Lando's race, there is a silver lining to this cloud.

He wasn't punished for squeezing, he was punished for the crash.

And the punishment was inconsequential. He had a big gap to the car behind and the punishment meant nothing. I think FIA should really think about making changes to the penalty system to be able to convert some of the penalties into track position penalties or penalties in the next race. What deterrence is a penalty if it doesn't affect the outcome?

Imagine if Piastri in Monaco decided to cut the chicane and then storm away from Leclerc? Would he get a 5 second penalty for gaining and advantage? Would Norris get just a 5 second penalty if he overtook Verstappen on track and steamed ahead? Not sure that is good for the sport. Either force them to give back the position or make it that penalties can be moved toward the next race - so that it has an effect.

The crash caused by the Squeezing?

As I say, I don't think it is inconsequential outside of the race. Inside of the race, yes. But what is important outside of the race is that the Stewards set a precedent by saying that this sort of driving is unacceptable.

I agree about Max making his own High Speed corner out of a low speed one, but I said that already when replying to Chris in a separate post. It is separate the the incident that this post is about, which was the squeezing and subsequent crash.

[FittingMechanics]

The crash caused by the Squeezing?

As I say, I don't think it is inconsequential outside of the race. Inside of the race, yes. But what is important outside of the race is that the Stewards set a precedent by saying that this sort of driving is unacceptable.

I agree about Max making his own High Speed corner out of a low speed one, but I said that already when replying to Chris in a separate post. It is separate the the incident that this post is about, which was the squeezing and subsequent crash.

I wouldn't call it squeezing as it was done on the brakes and Norris was on the edge of the track. Sure, he could have theoretically moved under braking to let Verstappen have better exit out of corner. You can't squeeze people on the brakes on the edge of the track. Rule against moving under braking exists because you can't and shouldn't squeeze people on brakes.

Squeezing works when you are under power and have room to move. Squeeze someone to the inside so he has to brake much earlier. What Verstappen did was crash into Norris by trying to open up his corner, all of this done under brakes as a reaction to Norris. And this is without mentioning him moving under braking in earlier attacks (one of which could have been a clear Norris hitting Verstappen into the rear).

[Darth-Piekus]

I think we are overanalyzing it. Max Verstappen in the last 3 laps before the incident has done so many dirty moves that would have earned him a black flag or a race ban. Moves like changing line at the last second on the brakes to force someone wide, going outside of the track and not giving back the position, crashing deliberately into someone else and if that's not enough in the last big straight he sent Norris to the grass and when Norris went to the other side he tried to send him to the wall. A race or two race bans should be the minimum.

[mwillems]

The crash caused by the Squeezing?

As I say, I don't think it is inconsequential outside of the race. Inside of the race, yes. But what is important outside of the race is that the Stewards set a precedent by saying that this sort of driving is unacceptable.

I agree about Max making his own High Speed corner out of a low speed one, but I said that already when replying to Chris in a separate post. It is separate the the incident that this post is about, which was the squeezing and subsequent crash.

I wouldn't call it squeezing as it was done on the brakes and Norris was on the edge of the track. Sure, he could have theoretically moved under braking to let Verstappen have better exit out of corner. You can't squeeze people on the brakes on the edge of the track. Rule against moving under braking exists because you can't and shouldn't squeeze people on brakes.

Squeezing works when you are under power and have room to move. Squeeze someone to the inside so he has to brake much earlier. What Verstappen did was crash into Norris by trying to open up his corner, all of this done under brakes as a reaction to Norris. And this is without mentioning him moving under braking in earlier attacks (one of which could have been a clear Norris hitting Verstappen into the rear).

Unfortunately it is in the Gray area of the rules in the way that he pulled across, that it is hard to say it isn't squeezing. Weaving is normally to block someone, but in this instance he wasn't blocking Lando, just reducing the space he had to get into slowly and aggressively and earlier than you normally would.

The stewards were deliberately vague as they knew anything could become inflammatory, but the document spoke specifically about the action being when Lando was alongside Max and therefore the penalty is not about moving under breaking, which happened before Lando was alongside.

There is an issue here in that once a driver is alongside you've always been allowed to move back across to squeeze a bit, even if you've already moved once in the braking area. And I don't want that changed. you aren't a danger to someone if you leave space and squeeze. it's hard and fair racing in my view, to squeeze when the car is alongside. He's done exactly that here, but started the move earlier but without overtly closing the space before Lando was in it. This is why the punishment is only for what happened when Lando was alongside Max. Which is the squeezing.


But what could be dealt with today, in this incident, was dealt with in the right way, in my view, based on what has happened in the past.

I would agree that they need to tighten up the regs about not being able to move twice into a squeeze until the car is alongside though, because the intent is to move Lando into a worse position before he's alongside, which in my view should now also be called blocking but is currently in a very gray area and it's something the FIA need to look at.