2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

[FW17]

This is also imho dragging in the whole track limits argument which noone really wants to deal with. Because by track limits argument, Max can go all the way to within inches of the white line and still leave room for Lando.

Kerbs are part of the track, grass and gravel are not.

[JordanMugen]

Norris didn't want to move when he had enough room and there was contact.

Come on guys, we really discuss why Norris didn't went on curb to avoid max? Really?

Excellent point. Why should Norris avoid the contact?

Surely Verstappen should also be motivated to avoid contact and avoid damaging race cars?

According to the stewards it was Verstappen and not Norris who was predominantly in the wrong after all.

Peter Windsor seems to blame DRS, which is quite true too. If Verstappen was racing his Escort and Norris his 2002 at Goodwood historic touring cars, would they really be so careless as to push other cars onto the grass and not leave enough space so as to risk damage?!

I guess (fortunately fr Verstappen) Mk1 Escort coupe pressings are still available brand new, whereas Norris might have more trouble sourcing or coachbuilding replacement 2002ti panels!

Verstappen is again showing a bit more clever than Norris in situations if you compare the outcomes from 2023 and 2024. It's a bit like what Vanja said earlier. You are going to be faced with situations like this that may be seen as unfair. Even still, there are still ways to outsmart your competition.

Surely keeping your race car intact is more important!

Would Sir Jack Brabham really race as Norris or Verstappen did?

[Mattchu]

Since when have the curbs been part of the actual track!
The curbs are there as tactile and visual elements to help a driver demarcate the track boundaries. Say this was a huge sausage curb which bounces the car in the air and potentially causes damage, would that have been OK...

The track is between the white lines, no ifs or buts!

They only just touched, the trouble (imo) is these stupid Maybach like cars!

[Hoffman900]

Last year, Verstappen vs Sainz:

https://i.redd.it/6mrgslk89r9d1.gif

These incidents are both wrong. Two wrongs don’t make a right. You should have been taught this as a toddler.

This is on the FIA for not stamping this out.

There's no issue with saying both are wrong. The problem is people thinking Verstappen is the first person to do this and only having something to say when Verstappen does it.

No one thinks that, and Max isn’t a victim of a which hunt here. He makes his own choices and has to accept the consequences. The problem with being surrounded by yes men and people kissing your feet all the time is he is incapable of doing that.

Senna wrote the book on this, Schumacher took it to its logical extreme.

Neither are racing, obviously, so it’s on Max and that’s that the discussion is about.

[Hoffman900]

Since when have the curbs been part of the actual track!
The curbs are there as tactile and visual elements to help a driver demarcate the track boundaries. Say this was a huge sausage curb which bounces the car in the air and potentially causes damage, would that have been OK...

The track is between the white lines, no ifs or buts!

They only just touched, the trouble (imo) is these stupid Maybach like cars!

The curbs are part of the track when the Max-stans need them to be

Imagine Lewis doing this to Max with the same outcome. You think they’ll be arguing “Max had room”?

[AR3-GP]

No one thinks that, and Max isn’t a victim of a which hunt here. He makes his own choices and has to accept the consequences. The problem with being surrounded by yes men and people kissing your feet all the time is he is incapable of doing that.

Senna wrote the book on this, Schumacher took it to its logical extreme.

Neither are racing, obviously, so it’s on Max and that’s that the discussion is about.

Who are Sainz's yes men?

[JordanMugen]

Senna wrote the book on this, Schumacher took it to its logical extreme.

Why don't more F1 drivers (be it Verstappen, Norris, Magnussen, Ocon etc) race like Sir Jack Brabham!?

Is it because they are not owner-drivers responsible to fix their own damage and/or the current cars & circuits are too safe compared to 1955-1970 examples?

Since the drivers need safe racing spelled out, the rule is you have to have a car's width to the white line if the other car is predominantly alongside -- although this is often not enforced (e.g., turn 1 Barcelona).

[AR3-GP]

Verstappen is again showing a bit more clever than Norris in situations if you compare the outcomes from 2023 and 2024. It's a bit like what Vanja said earlier. You are going to be faced with situations like this that may be seen as unfair. Even still, there are still ways to outsmart your competition.

Surely keeping your race car intact is more important!

The reference is comparing how Verstappen outsmarted Sainz in spite of being crowded off track in the brake zone, where Norris failed to replicate the same a year later.

[Hoffman900]

Verstappen is again showing a bit more clever than Norris in situations if you compare the outcomes from 2023 and 2024. It's a bit like what Vanja said earlier. You are going to be faced with situations like this that may be seen as unfair. Even still, there are still ways to outsmart your competition.

Surely keeping your race car intact is more important!

The reference is comparing how Verstappen outsmarted Sainz in spite of being crowded off track in the brake zone, where Norris failed to replicate the same a year later.

https://i.redd.it/6mrgslk89r9d1.gif

Norris failed to replicate it because Max hit him

Does anyone want to share the gif of Max trying to run Lando in the grass after contact too? Or are we just going to continue strawman arguments?

[JordanMugen]

The reference is comparing how Verstappen outsmarted Sainz in spite of being crowded off track in the brake zone, where Norris failed to replicate the same a year later.

https://i.redd.it/6mrgslk89r9d1.gif

Good job by Verstappen to avoid the collision there!

Regardless Norris was not deemed in the wrong by the stewards.

Does anyone want to share the gif of Max trying to run Lando in the grass after contact too? Or are we just going to continue strawman arguments?

Is there a suggestion that was a dirty move?

The benefit-of-doubt interpretation is that Verstappen was merely getting out of the way of faster traffic, due to have an ailing car.

If anything Verstappen was trying to help Norris by showing the correct speed to return to the pits. Instead, Norris went too fast and tore up his floor and had to retire, where Verstappen with a similar rear puncture was able to finish the race and get points.

[AR3-GP]

The reference is comparing how Verstappen outsmarted Sainz in spite of being crowded off track in the brake zone, where Norris failed to replicate the same a year later.

https://i.redd.it/6mrgslk89r9d1.gif

Good job by Verstappen to avoid the collision there!

Regardless Norris was not deemed in the wrong by the stewards.

If you are following, the point is not that Norris is "wrong". Verstappen caused a collision. The penalty is fair. As I said earlier, the stewards were actually consistent. Hamilton received a penalty for crowding piastri out and causing contact in the brake zone in Monza last year:


However, these token penalties never deliver "justice". It's never worth it to rely on the penalty system to "make it right" when your own actions can still allow you to outsmart your rival. Piastri of course didn't have anywhere to go because of the grass, but Norris still had a chance to show he was smarter.

In the end Verstappen got a token penalty and +10 points.

[Mattchu]

2024 FORMULA ONE SPORTING REGULATIONS

33.3
Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the
track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of
the track but the kerbs are not.

[JordanMugen]

If you are following, the point is not that Norris is "wrong". Verstappen caused a collision. The penalty is fair.

Of course! Good job stewards.

Hamilton received a penalty for crowding piastri out and causing contact in the brake zone in Monza last year:

Clumsy and poor racing by Hamilton and a rightful penalty too.

You have to leave a car's width to the white line, the rule is simple. If the outside car does dutifully leave a car's width on the inside, it is also incumbent on the inside car to not understeer wide (e.g., Hamilton causing the Silverstone 2021 Verstappen crash as judged by the stewards).

[chrisc90]

2024 FORMULA ONE SPORTING REGULATIONS

33.3
Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the
track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of
the track but the kerbs are not.

So norris had a full car width left. As per my example above. (see red text)

[AR3-GP]

Surely keeping your race car intact is more important!

The reference is comparing how Verstappen outsmarted Sainz in spite of being crowded off track in the brake zone, where Norris failed to replicate the same a year later.

https://i.redd.it/6mrgslk89r9d1.gif

Norris failed to replicate it because Max hit him

Norris is entitled to keeping his line and allowing the collision to take it's course. It will always then become a penalty for Max because Max was the one moving. However due to this, Verstappen scored +10pts. He saw Verstappen crowding him and stuck his ground. The outcome speaks for itself. The penalty systems will never be fair. Previous seasons have shown that.

When there's still a chance to outsmart the opposition, you should take it. That doesn't mean the other driver was "right" though. It's something to be addressed in the drivers meetings after the race. Norris can raise the incident and ask for precedent or more clarity.