2024 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 19 - 21

[chrisc90]

The over speeding negates where on the racing surface he was. The more inside you are, the tighter the radius. If he is braking at the same point, but is now more inside relative to the racing line, then he is going too fast.

You’re only looking at part of the picture.

The data if anything, proves he was never making that corner.

Edited my post in blue to add my reasoning for this in my post to avoid adding more posts on the matter.

[gh0stadian]

Chris33, after repeating like 20 times what you think HAM (potentially) did wrong...
It would be refreshing to hear you enumerate what Max (potentially) did wrong.
Because just repeating the same thing over and over again would be spam. What exactly is that line of discussion supposed to achieve, what is the end game? Everyone bending over and blaming Hamilton?

Note: I added "(potentially)" because I am still to see telemetry clearly showing Ham first braking then turning, as opposite to first turning a tiny bit and then braking, which is a MAX move "braking in a straight line". I am open to believing it when I see something clear saying that braking happened before turning.

I guess you mean me....not that I am chris33 for a start

I think I explained it enough. Pointless going round in circles as your clearly on a "mod mode" there so even if I do elaborate - you will only dish out warnings for 'spamming/trolling a point'. Lets face it, my posts weren't exactly all about the same thing, and any point countered by other users has been made with videos to back up my point.

Both did slightly wrong, I believe the situation was escalated by Lewis moving over under the braking. Had that not happened then Max may not have locked up. But pointless dealing in hypotheticals. As the point just goes round and round.

I'd also like to add a philosophical point, as a member, not as a mod:

Max's plan for the corner was clearly to brake very late, be ahead at the apex and thus gain rights by being ahead at the apex. The result of trying to gain rights at the apex was a collision... before the apex. Which makes the whole point a bit meta.

Telemetry, as you ask for is as follows for Max on Laps 61,62 and 63. All with DRS. There was no overspeeding into the corner, braking was probably fractionally later, not very late as you suggest, but thats probably countered by staying in a lower gear with the engine braking, and/or deployment/regenerative strategies to assist slowing down, possibly. (given engine braking will be higher in a lower gear) What the scaling in terms of distance travelled on the telemetry I dont know. It wont be far though. FYI - Lewis braked later than Max on Lap 63 (see telemetry at bottom of post)
https://ibb.co/QdFpCHT

Of course, we never get steering angle traces, unless someone is mightily clever to overlay the telemetry with the onboard footage.

Was it a late send? Most probably.
Was it a 'red mist' move? Probably
Most ideal situation for Max making a all or nothing move? Absolutely not. Plenty laps left with a tyre delta
Was there moving under braking? Yep, overhead footage shows it - despite the stewards somehow agreeing with Lewis and his previous consistent lines through T1
Could Lewis have done more to avoid a collision? Yeah, a little bit, as the stewards said.
Was Lewis' line consistent with previous laps? Nope. AR3 made a good post showing it was completly different. As did I explaining the movement as certain braking marker boards.
Is the stewards report contain a few errors? I believe so


There was a few people who were 'sticking up' for Max (used lightly). TFSA, AR3, Me, and Dialtone et al from memory who all made very good points backed up with evidence.

That's all I have to add - Hopefully this answers to your 'mod hat' post (being in Italics like you normally do). Anything else feel free to PM me as I feel you 'have it out' for anyone making decent posts explaining their opinion on the incident. And that will only end in posts being removed and warnings issued for 'repeating the same and spamming'.

https://ibb.co/tq4NchQ

Well, i think these telemetries are quite not representative, as max in previous laps went on the outside, deep into t1 to switchback and be on the outside onto T2. In lap 63, the roles were reversed and even from telemetry you can see he braked later. I am no expert (i drive a little bit sim) but even i know that if you are on the inside, you need to start braking EARLIER and leave a little bit margin.

[langedweil]

I'll won't mingle in the Ham/Ver discussion, I'd just say a fine decision. Red mist got the overhand, and Ham didn't bulge.
But both cars are seriously built tough though ..

The mess McL created was insane, sorry for Pia his first needed to be a give away. Silly from Nor to go against it .. either keep P1 until the end, or give it back immediately and race him for it.

And today it feels like something broke within RBR ..

[hollus]

I am still to see if Hamilton did brake first, then turned, of first turned a little, then braked in a straight line (I am inclined to believe the first a bit more). Until then, it is a hypothetical, but we don’t like to discuss those, apparently. Why would we in a discussion forum?
Here go two more hypotheticals, since “Max turned at the same distance” seems to be the only solid point that counts when it comes to him:
a) Max brakes at the same distance, while on the usual line, near the outside kerb. He is behind Lewis, who (potentially) trail-brakes into an empty space, and makes the corner normally.
b) Max choses an extremely tight line, and accordingly brakes a tad earlier than usual. HAM (potentially) trail-brakes into an empty space and presumably is first at the apex in a reasonably normal line.

It is hard to have a constructive conversation when people insists on ignoring the arguments of the other side.

[Dazed1]

"And today it feels like something broke within RBR .." Spoiled children are wonderful until you can't give them everything they want anymore. Not pointing fingers at anyone, of course.

[SKYnRacing24]

Norris throwing shade at Hamilton in the cool down room sums up why he's buddies with Max. The psychology is fascinating. Norris ONCE AGAIN has failed to capitalise on a race win. How many chances does he need to get a consistent run going, hes feeling intimidated, ego knocked for six. This is why this talk of a title charge is hyperbole, hes got oscar in the other car, A pitwall that might aswell sit on a actual wooden fence , poor starts with poor racecraft at times. Ive heard " this is the first year he's had a car to challenge " I don't give a crap, Lewis, Alonso, Max all stepped up when the opportunity arises. He's in his 6th year in F1, pissing away chances like this is quite frankly......a disgrace. Russell would not be messing about like that. He has clear racecraft on wheel to wheel battles and would of won previous races with it.

Expect to see desperate driving from Norris in Spa. Yes thats right i said it.

Norris was petulant in the cool down room (both with Lewis and in his actions) and then on the podium where he ignored Piastri and sprayed champagne at the team rep and Lewis.

Norris is increasingly coming across as a spoilt brat.

Dudes just butthurt he's not making use of a fast car, Im glad im getting a sample size of what Norris is about on track and off when the cars competitive. That jokey playful mask of his has slipped and even though he's more serious these days he's not getting it done on track. Which means i can't really take him seriously (for now)

For all the talk that he's on Max or Lewis's levels, the simple fact is he is not. 6 years in F1 and i haven't seen a standout performance apart from a few qualies here and there. He's a good driver without doubt but the situation is this, to win this possible title. He needs to put clinical weekends together from SPA to the end of the season. He seems to have a pace advantage over Pastri 8 times out 10, Qualy he's been on it but on race day he can't optimise the package.

He didn't have any belief he could take Piastri on track even though he had a 1.3 second gap before the pitstop phase. Should of used his brain to realise him pitting first would cause internal problems as the undercut was powerful but could of thought on track even being 3 or 4 seconds back after Pastri pitted first.

Hamilton had these situations when fighting against Nico and more often than not he passed him on track as he had a pace advantage. I guess Norris didn't think he would have the delta to overtake Piastri on a circuit like this so allowed that decision to be made from the pitwall. With the pace Norris was showing in that last stint, he could of brought himself into fighting range. Andrea Stella saying they were worried about on track battles between them gives a lil insight to why they made that decision.

Overall Norris needs to do better. I wouldn't want to be P1 going up through Eau Rouge either on SPA lap 1. He will most likely get slipstreamed from who evers behind lol

[bluechris]

To me, after all the latest incidents with max, i think all the other drivers learned how to fight him. The situation "i attack and you need to avoid me" doesn't work anymore and if he is smart he must stop doing this.
Honestly most of the times he is not need to do staff like this, he is super fast and he will pass eventually but it will take a bit more time.
He needs at last to think what he risks and what he gain's with this type of driving and if the trend in the championship goes like this, where MCLaren is above, then every point count's.

[chrisc90]

I am still to see if Hamilton did brake first, then turned, of first turned a little, then braked in a straight line (I am inclined to believe the first a bit more). Until then, it is a hypothetical, but we don’t like to discuss those, apparently. Why would we in a discussion forum?
Here go two more hypotheticals, since “Max turned at the same distance” seems to be the only solid point that counts when it comes to him:
a) Max brakes at the same distance, while on the usual line, near the outside kerb. He is behind Lewis, who (potentially) trail-brakes into an empty space, and makes the corner normally.
b) Max choses an extremely tight line, and accordingly brakes a tad earlier than usual. HAM (potentially) trail-brakes into an empty space and presumably is first at the apex in a reasonably normal line.

It is hard to have a constructive conversation when people insists on ignoring the arguments of the other side.

Best I can offer. It appears pretty well lined up, its a little bit difficult on multiviewer to sync the players exactly. But the gear changes and brake applications seem to match up with the graphic. You might have to ask Juzh to do a proper video of it as their videos on it are spot on (multiviewer blocks screen recording so excuse the recorded pic)

Hopefully it can help you, or others to come to a conclusion of your thoughts. I personally have nothing else to add to that.

[Hoffman900]

I am still to see if Hamilton did brake first, then turned, of first turned a little, then braked in a straight line (I am inclined to believe the first a bit more). Until then, it is a hypothetical, but we don’t like to discuss those, apparently. Why would we in a discussion forum?
Here go two more hypotheticals, since “Max turned at the same distance” seems to be the only solid point that counts when it comes to him:
a) Max brakes at the same distance, while on the usual line, near the outside kerb. He is behind Lewis, who (potentially) trail-brakes into an empty space, and makes the corner normally.
b) Max choses an extremely tight line, and accordingly brakes a tad earlier than usual. HAM (potentially) trail-brakes into an empty space and presumably is first at the apex in a reasonably normal line.

It is hard to have a constructive conversation when people insists on ignoring the arguments of the other side.

Best I can offer. It appears pretty well lined up, its a little bit difficult on multiviewer to sync the players exactly. But the gear changes and brake applications seem to match up with the graphic. You might have to ask Juzh to do a proper video of it as their videos on it are spot on (multiviewer blocks screen recording so excuse the recorded pic)

Hopefully it can help you, or others to come to a conclusion of your thoughts. I personally have nothing else to add to that.

The broadcast and publicly available sampling rate aren’t tight enough to really pinpoint braking markers to this degree, especially when they’re traveling over 85m/s.

The data being shared has interpolation done between points. It’s pretty coarse compared to what the FIA and teams have available to them.

[chrisc90]

I am still to see if Hamilton did brake first, then turned, of first turned a little, then braked in a straight line (I am inclined to believe the first a bit more). Until then, it is a hypothetical, but we don’t like to discuss those, apparently. Why would we in a discussion forum?
Here go two more hypotheticals, since “Max turned at the same distance” seems to be the only solid point that counts when it comes to him:
a) Max brakes at the same distance, while on the usual line, near the outside kerb. He is behind Lewis, who (potentially) trail-brakes into an empty space, and makes the corner normally.
b) Max choses an extremely tight line, and accordingly brakes a tad earlier than usual. HAM (potentially) trail-brakes into an empty space and presumably is first at the apex in a reasonably normal line.

It is hard to have a constructive conversation when people insists on ignoring the arguments of the other side.

Best I can offer. It appears pretty well lined up, its a little bit difficult on multiviewer to sync the players exactly. But the gear changes and brake applications seem to match up with the graphic. You might have to ask Juzh to do a proper video of it as their videos on it are spot on (multiviewer blocks screen recording so excuse the recorded pic)

Hopefully it can help you, or others to come to a conclusion of your thoughts. I personally have nothing else to add to that.

The broadcast and publicly available sampling rate aren’t tight enough to really pinpoint braking markers to this degree, especially when they’re traveling over 85m/s.

The data being shared has interpolation done between points. It’s pretty coarse compared to what the FIA and teams have available to them.

Of course. I'm sure FIA data will be perfectly sync'd between cars to the hundredth/thousandth. However, for purposes of discussion and evaluation in the public domain....Its the best we get unfortunately. I'm sure all the fans would love better sampling rates and data streams, but we dont get them at the minute.

[Just_a_fan]

I am still to see if Hamilton did brake first, then turned, of first turned a little, then braked in a straight line (I am inclined to believe the first a bit more). Until then, it is a hypothetical, but we don’t like to discuss those, apparently. Why would we in a discussion forum?
Here go two more hypotheticals, since “Max turned at the same distance” seems to be the only solid point that counts when it comes to him:
a) Max brakes at the same distance, while on the usual line, near the outside kerb. He is behind Lewis, who (potentially) trail-brakes into an empty space, and makes the corner normally.
b) Max choses an extremely tight line, and accordingly brakes a tad earlier than usual. HAM (potentially) trail-brakes into an empty space and presumably is first at the apex in a reasonably normal line.

It is hard to have a constructive conversation when people insists on ignoring the arguments of the other side.

The stewards said that they looked at the telemetry and Hamilton did the same on previous laps so he didn't change his approach to the corner this time. They did say that Max braked at the same point as normal but because of DRS arrived much faster than normal. Which is presumably why he then got fully locked up trying to slow the car for the corner.

Ironically, the contact was most likely due to Max's getting out of shape - the overhead shows it well that as he was sailing by Lewis, his car rotated slightly which didn't help his attempts to make the corner.

The stewards worked hard to avoid giving Max a penalty, no doubt helped by Lewis considering it a racing incident rather than a collision caused by deliberate action. So, ironically again, Max owes Lewis for not losing more points via a time penalty dropping him behind Sainz.

[Just_a_fan]

It's interesting to see the official forum pieces about the clash focus on Hamilton. "Hamilton under investigation", "no penalty for Hamilton". Hamilton was never under investigation, Max was.

Should be "Verstappen under investigation" and "Verstappen escapes a penalty", of course.

And even when picked up on it by someone on Facebook, tried to focus blame on Hamilton. And said "all good" as it was a race incident.

One hates to use the bias word, but it's showing through the cracks just a little bit.

[f1jcw]

Wow absolutely shocking and disgusting. Really the person who writes up the front page needs to have a word with either himself or someone needs to edit it.

Seems like it was right to leave off this forum.

[littlebigcat]

Norris throwing shade at Hamilton in the cool down room sums up why he's buddies with Max. The psychology is fascinating. Norris ONCE AGAIN has failed to capitalise on a race win. How many chances does he need to get a consistent run going, hes feeling intimidated, ego knocked for six. This is why this talk of a title charge is hyperbole, hes got oscar in the other car, A pitwall that might aswell sit on a actual wooden fence , poor starts with poor racecraft at times. Ive heard " this is the first year he's had a car to challenge " I don't give a crap, Lewis, Alonso, Max all stepped up when the opportunity arises. He's in his 6th year in F1, pissing away chances like this is quite frankly......a disgrace. Russell would not be messing about like that. He has clear racecraft on wheel to wheel battles and would of won previous races with it.

Expect to see desperate driving from Norris in Spa. Yes thats right i said it.

Norris was petulant in the cool down room (both with Lewis and in his actions) and then on the podium where he ignored Piastri and sprayed champagne at the team rep and Lewis.

Norris is increasingly coming across as a spoilt brat.

Dudes just butthurt he's not making use of a fast car, Im glad im getting a sample size of what Norris is about on track and off when the cars competitive. That jokey playful mask of his has slipped and even though he's more serious these days he's not getting it done on track. Which means i can't really take him seriously (for now)

For all the talk that he's on Max or Lewis's levels, the simple fact is he is not. 6 years in F1 and i haven't seen a standout performance apart from a few qualies here and there. He's a good driver without doubt but the situation is this, to win this possible title. He needs to put clinical weekends together from SPA to the end of the season. He seems to have a pace advantage over Pastri 8 times out 10, Qualy he's been on it but on race day he can't optimise the package.

He didn't have any belief he could take Piastri on track even though he had a 1.3 second gap before the pitstop phase. Should of used his brain to realise him pitting first would cause internal problems as the undercut was powerful but could of thought on track even being 3 or 4 seconds back after Pastri pitted first.

Hamilton had these situations when fighting against Nico and more often than not he passed him on track as he had a pace advantage. I guess Norris didn't think he would have the delta to overtake Piastri on a circuit like this so allowed that decision to be made from the pitwall. With the pace Norris was showing in that last stint, he could of brought himself into fighting range. Andrea Stella saying they were worried about on track battles between them gives a lil insight to why they made that decision.

Overall Norris needs to do better. I wouldn't want to be P1 going up through Eau Rouge either on SPA lap 1. He will most likely get slipstreamed from who evers behind lol

Hamilton was into his seventh season of F1 and had two former champions as team mates before he was fighting with Rosberg.

This is Norris’ first season in a competitive car, hardly comparable

[TeamKoolGreen]

I'll won't mingle in the Ham/Ver discussion, I'd just say a fine decision. Red mist got the overhand, and Ham didn't bulge.

Except you just did. And LH did more than just not budge. As DC said on the live call on F1 TV