2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[TeamKoolGreen]

This claim that RBPT are 100 hp down is nothing but fanciful rumours by fans of other teams. Yet it gets trotted out here as fact. Abject nonsense like this shouldn't be allowed to fly on a serious technical forum.

[TeamKoolGreen]

Wheatley leaving for a TP position is quite a natural step for someone looking to make it, as it was reported of him a while ago. Audi is a reasonable decision for him and he's a fantastic catch for them.

Top brass are changing teams a lot lately and there is absolutely nothing different with Red Bull. Newey and Wheatley leaving must have made quite a massive opening in the 2025 budget, just like it does for othee teams.

In the last 18-20 months Ferrari "lost" Binotto, Sanchez, Mekies and Cardille of the "big" names and all of them got a promotion or a pay raise in another team, compared to that Red Bull is having a great time keeping top brass around!

Twisting the narrative into blaming Horner for this "implosion"... Not even gonna comment

Yes, it is natural for Wheatley to go for TP, but I can't stop thinking of what Jos said that the team is falling apart because of Horner. After that, Newey leaves, the team's domination ends, and Wheatley leaves. Too many coincidences.

The irony of Jos's comment is that Christian Horner is the only irreplaceable one at Red Bull. Everyone else is there because Horner put them there.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

Wheatley leaving for a TP position is quite a natural step for someone looking to make it, as it was reported of him a while ago. Audi is a reasonable decision for him and he's a fantastic catch for them.

Top brass are changing teams a lot lately and there is absolutely nothing different with Red Bull. Newey and Wheatley leaving must have made quite a massive opening in the 2025 budget, just like it does for othee teams.

In the last 18-20 months Ferrari "lost" Binotto, Sanchez, Mekies and Cardille of the "big" names and all of them got a promotion or a pay raise in another team, compared to that Red Bull is having a great time keeping top brass around!

Twisting the narrative into blaming Horner for this "implosion"... Not even gonna comment

Yes, it is natural for Wheatley to go for TP, but I can't stop thinking of what Jos said that the team is falling apart because of Horner. After that, Newey leaves, the team's domination ends, and Wheatley leaves. Too many coincidences.

The irony of Jos's comment is that Christian Horner is the only irreplaceable one at Red Bull. Everyone else is there because Horner put them there.

Yes, Horner's staying could have caused other key members like Newey and Wheatley to leave, a scenario that we cannot entirely rule out.

[Dunlay]

Wheatley leaving for a TP position is quite a natural step for someone looking to make it, as it was reported of him a while ago. Audi is a reasonable decision for him and he's a fantastic catch for them.

Top brass are changing teams a lot lately and there is absolutely nothing different with Red Bull. Newey and Wheatley leaving must have made quite a massive opening in the 2025 budget, just like it does for othee teams.

In the last 18-20 months Ferrari "lost" Binotto, Sanchez, Mekies and Cardille of the "big" names and all of them got a promotion or a pay raise in another team, compared to that Red Bull is having a great time keeping top brass around!

Twisting the narrative into blaming Horner for this "implosion"... Not even gonna comment

Wheatley will make a good TP, I'm sure. He's one of the brains behind Red Bull's success and I think the team will miss him.

Going as a Team Principal for teams that never make progress upwards is a career suicide. We have seen so many intelligent and successful technical directors making such a move and gone into oblivion. Paddy Lowe for example. Of the top teams, going to Ferrari is a financially beneficial suicide, but a suicide. By the time Wheatly would have banged his head without much success at Sauber/Audi, there would be someone else at Red Bull that would be ready to become Team Principal, like GP for instance. So it's a one way street for Wheatly. Toto doesn't seem to be going anywhere either, which is why Vowels went to Williams. Look at his situation. Not everyone can become Ross Brawn that can go, turn teams around and make them successful. Unless money is a factor, being at a team that has the limelight is usually the safest thing to do. You enjoy the perks of success, be a sought after man and then when the opportunity does come, then get the role you always wanted.

[Waz]

Mentioning Ross Brawn is quite interesting. There doesn't seem to be anyone amongst the younger F1 management that might be capable of joining a team and completely turning it around into something successful.

We haven't seen anyone do that since his last effort of turning a dead beat Honda team into BrawnGP and then ultimately the dominant Mercedes.

[Waz]

At the same time, Wheatley will leave a big hole in Red Bull, and while Sauber are drifting along stone last right now, their situation is slightly different to say, Williams or Alpine, in that they're due to morph into a factory Audi team, who have enjoyed success in many other series, including even being the driving force behind Ducati in MotoGP.

[ME4ME]

Mentioning Ross Brawn is quite interesting. There doesn't seem to be anyone amongst the younger F1 management that might be capable of joining a team and completely turning it around into something successful.

We haven't seen anyone do that since his last effort of turning a dead beat Honda team into BrawnGP and then ultimately the dominant Mercedes.

Andrea Stella is doing great. James Volves is lifting Williams from the grave and has just hired 250 people over the last two years, finally implemented and ERP system and succeeded in signing Carlos Sainz. Even Ayao Komatsu is doing well.

Ross Brawn did well too but lets not forget Honda put an incredible amount of resources into that 2009 chassis. Brawn succeeded in negotiating an Mercedes engine deal and fought hard to retain the double diffuser. After that 2009 championship however, the team's performance dropped and it took them longer than what the Mercedes board accepted and Brawn himself was shown the door.

Great managers or indeed leaders aren't something from the past. It's just that circumstances must enable them to succeed. Also F1 organizations have ballooned in size and complexity.

[Watto]

Yes, it is natural for Wheatley to go for TP, but I can't stop thinking of what Jos said that the team is falling apart because of Horner. After that, Newey leaves, the team's domination ends, and Wheatley leaves. Too many coincidences.

The irony of Jos's comment is that Christian Horner is the only irreplaceable one at Red Bull. Everyone else is there because Horner put them there.

Yes, Horner's staying could have caused other key members like Newey and Wheatley to leave, a scenario that we cannot entirely rule out.

You can't rule it out no doubt, But many of the reports were Newey only signed is last contact because of Horner.

I do probably thing his relationship with Horner has cooled I wonder if it is possible that with the team in confict his last remaining reason to stay had gone.

I think a big reason Newey stayed at Red Bull so long was the lack of corporate culture he had in an interview somewhere about buillding out the engineering department if he wanted some new equipment or what ever you asked Mateschitz he asked for a business case to be make as long as he could justify the spend it got okayed. No boards to deal with penny pinching or things being done their way. As much I think newey had his times when le lost interest in F1 full time RB allowed him the time to work on other things and move in and out of F1 projects as he saw fit - no doubt he alway has a role. But was able to pick and choose. Now there is more a corporate look to RBR to deal with

Wheatly maybe falls in a simular catatory maybe not happy with Horner but because things have changed and a factory team came knocking he had a look. Not sure anyone realy knows. I don't rule out for a moment it could all be becasue of Horner.

[Sergej]

Waché

“I think we pushed the boundary a little bit high and, in some areas, maybe too much, and that has created some characteristics that are not designed for the drivers.

The success is coming, not by yourself, it is also coming by the relative performance to the others. Last year, we were fortunate that the others didn’t do as good a job as they have done this year, I think that is also an aspect we have to take into account.

RB20 is a better car than RB19 – however, maybe we could do a better job and that’s what we are trying to fix for the end of the season and for next year, to give the drivers a better tool to be able to fight.”

as I said much time ago, upgrades are not delivering as expected, at least they are not hiding it

also, some areas where they pushed too much, maybe a reference to the stiff suspension ?

[ME4ME]

On Motorsport.com Wache is quoted to admit that RB20 isn't living up to expectations in the high speed and that curb riding is still an issue, just as it was last year.

My guess is they overdid the anti-dive on the front suspension somewhat, didn't get the gains but got the disadvantages of such geometry. Mercedes if I recall correctly experimented in the pre-season test with a Red Bull esque aggressive anti-dive geometry but backed off a bit.

Edit:

RB20 is a better car than RB19 – however, maybe we could do a better job and that’s what we are trying to fix for the end of the season and for next year, to give the drivers a better tool to be able to fight.”

This quote makes me wonder if they indeed could introduce an updated front suspension at the end of the year. Maybe even the RB21 chassis. Sure, the viability is questionable especially under the budget cap. However, if they identified the root cause of their issues after Monaco and Imola, the timeline for a new chassis could be sufficiently long. We pretty much know Red Bull had a new chassis ready at some point around the Singapore Grand Prix a few years ago which they chose not to introduce. And regarding the budget cap aspect, Red Bull is the team most limited in WT and CFD hours, which ironically saves them some expense. Given that 2025 will basically be a continuation of the current car family, they might as well put their latest ideas to the test before the winter because next year they'll won't have much resources for the 2025 car.

[f1isgood]

This claim that RBPT are 100 hp down is nothing but fanciful rumours by fans of other teams. Yet it gets trotted out here as fact. Abject nonsense like this shouldn't be allowed to fly on a serious technical forum.

The FIA has provisions to ensure all teams are within 30hp at best. This 100hp bs will not fly.

RBPT is a risky project but it if it doesn't work out, there's good chance they'll have company with Audi and definitely Renault, which will help in politics.

Also we are no longer in an engine freeze era like 14-16 where the rules allowed a dominant team to remain dominant by ensuring others cant do much. Engines are at a parity, there are 6 competitive cars, you cant win every race and so on.

[f1isgood]

On Motorsport.com Wache is quoted to admit that RB20 isn't living up to expectations in the high speed and that curb riding is still an issue, just as it was last year.

My guess is they overdid the anti-dive on the front suspension somewhat, didn't get the gains but got the disadvantages of such geometry. Mercedes if I recall correctly experimented in the pre-season test with a Red Bull esque aggressive anti-dive geometry but backed off a bit.

Edit:

RB20 is a better car than RB19 – however, maybe we could do a better job and that’s what we are trying to fix for the end of the season and for next year, to give the drivers a better tool to be able to fight.”

This quote makes me wonder if they indeed could introduce an updated front suspension at the end of the year. Maybe even the RB21 chassis. Sure, the viability is questionable especially under the budget cap. However, if they identified the root cause of their issues after Monaco and Imola, the timeline for a new chassis could be sufficiently long. We pretty much know Red Bull had a new chassis ready at some point around the Singapore Grand Prix a few years ago which they chose not to introduce. And regarding the budget cap aspect, Red Bull is the team most limited in WT and CFD hours, which ironically saves them some expense. Given that 2025 will basically be a continuation of the current car family, they might as well put their latest ideas to the test before the winter because next year they'll won't have much resources for the 2025 car.

I think they did the right thing from the RB19 personally except for somehow losing tire wear. They made RB19's strengths even better -- more efficient and better high speed and compensated quite a bit for slow speed. What I didn't see was them losing ground to McLaren on tire management. Tire management is really the issue with RB20. Fix that and half the issues will be gone.

[f1isgood]

Waché

“I think we pushed the boundary a little bit high and, in some areas, maybe too much, and that has created some characteristics that are not designed for the drivers.

The success is coming, not by yourself, it is also coming by the relative performance to the others. Last year, we were fortunate that the others didn’t do as good a job as they have done this year, I think that is also an aspect we have to take into account.

RB20 is a better car than RB19 – however, maybe we could do a better job and that’s what we are trying to fix for the end of the season and for next year, to give the drivers a better tool to be able to fight.”

as I said much time ago, upgrades are not delivering as expected, at least they are not hiding it

also, some areas where they pushed too much, maybe a reference to the stiff suspension ?

He didn't say anything about upgrades here though?

He's admitting the car has weaknesses, which they'll try to fix.

Also about stiff suspension -- the car is better than RB19 at slow speed. Just not as good as McL/Merc.

[AR3-GP]

I read somewhere (I think Motorsport.nl?) to expect updates in the Baku-Singapore-Austin timeframe. In theory there could be a lot of potential unlocked if they understood what causes the lack of correlation and changed something on the car to fix it.

[Paa]

I read somewhere (I think Motorsport.nl?) to expect updates in the Baku-Singapore-Austin timeframe. In theory there could be a lot of potential unlocked if they understood what causes the lack of correlation and changed something on the car to fix it.

But did they?
It was quite telling how insecure they were about Hungary updates before putting them on the car. You could feel their lack of confidence about correlation and what to expect.
That was few weeks ago, I'm not sure they had any eureka moment since then.