2024 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Aug 30 - Sep 1

[CHT]

Great race strategy for Charles and Ferrari. A win at Monza in front of Tifosi for Charles is important phycological boost for 2025 when he drives alongside 7x WDC.

Great race from OP. Anyone knows what is the meaning of Mclaren Papaya rule?

[dialtone]

OP has had all season to make a statement, he failed, Lando has to drive with caution, a DNF for him could just take him out the title fight, a DNF for OP means nothing but dropped points for Mclaren, its a bit unfair to say Lando needs to get good, when he has beaten the not in the title fight team mate all season, thats why one can still fight for the title and the other cant.

I don’t think it’s unfair to say that if you want to be WDC you need to not lose pole on the first lap each race you have. Leaving the door open at La Roggia was his mistake, OP took it.

I agree that this stuff wouldn’t be needed if McL did their job and that at the start of the season PIA was inconsistent. But this is what you get with a competitive car, drivers want to win.

[TeamKoolGreen]

I am a Max Verstappen fan first and foremost. But this narrative that Mercedes and now McLaren should be falling over themselves to sign Max , with the lineups both teams have, is kinda ridiculous to me. Especially since Jos the boss, would raise hell at the first moment that one of Piastri, Norris, Russell or Antonelli gets one up on Max. If Max was in Lando's McLaren today, it would be a double DNF for the team.

Why is it ridiculous? Norris has been driving the best car for atleast half this season and barely manages to get a win, eventhough he is fast. We've seen what happens when Verstappen has the best car. The only drivers who have shown this level of performance are Hamilton (not available and is at the end of his career) and Alonso (past his prime by now). Verstappen is a bit unhappy at Red Bull, so there is chance you might persuade him. What reason could you possibly have to NOT want Verstappen?

Why not just keep Piastri then ? There's no way McLaren could keep Max and either Piastri or Lando. Lando would be good enough to piss Jos off. Jos literally went to the media after Perez won his last race. If you get Max, you need to also have a true #2 like Bottas.

[JordanMugen]

See RB and MB the previous years for example with Hamilton and imagine Bottas vX.0 to attack Hamilton like this in the 1st lap or Perez on Max ? in the 4th turn like this?

This is a poor example, because McLaren has Rosberg and Hamilton (or Ricciardo and Verstappen, or Webber and Vettel) not Bottas and Hamilton (or Perez and Verstappen).

[Or Button and Hamilton for that matter!]

The same argument can be made that Hamilton was a poor wingman for both Button and Rosberg too.

It wasn't too late, 3 races ago. Now it is down to the wire. Norris needs 7.8 more points per race to beat Max. And he has done that the last 2 races. But now there's zero room for error and its all up to fate.

Norris not driving well enough to deserve to be champion though...

Why is it ridiculous? Norris has been driving the best car for atleast half this season and barely manages to get a win

Exactly! That's hardly the mark of a champion!

[bluechris]

See RB and MB the previous years for example with Hamilton and imagine Bottas vX.0 to attack Hamilton like this in the 1st lap or Perez on Max ? in the 4th turn like this?

This is a poor example, because McLaren has Rosberg and Hamilton (or Ricciardo and Verstappen, or Webber and Vettel) not Bottas and Hamilton (or Perez and Verstappen).

Nope, if the teams i mentioned did let the other drivers do whatever they like, you think Vettel would had the championships it has, or Hamilton? Webber and Bottas in the eyes of the team where number 2 from team decision first that crippled their minds imo and accepted No2 status. I dont say this is the case now with Piastri because the kid is superfast (needs too much time still to keep his tyres in good position till the end etc) but jesus, you can wait 1-2 laps to clear ahead from the other teams and if Piastri was faster the team could had ask Norris to move aside to have the win for certain.
I dont know.. maybe i see too much on this... but i strongly believe teams must guide their drivers for the optimum result and yesterday MCLaren botched it, plain and simple.. no matter who was 1st or 2nd.

[JordanMugen]

Nope, if the teams i mentioned did let the other drivers do whatever they like, you think Vettel would had the championships it has, or Hamilton? Webber and Bottas in the eyes of the team where number 2 from team decision first

That's not correct. Webber was leading the world driver's championship going into Abu Dhabi 2020. If Red Bull had issued team orders in favour of points leader Webber in earlier rounds, then Vettel would have fallen short of the points needed to win the title and Alonso would have won the title.

Webber was more than happy to force Vettel off the track at the first corner of the British Grand Prix in 2010 IIRC! A vital part of Webber's championship bid that year!

Since anything can happen, team orders against Piastri are thus not necessary!

[bluechris]

Nope, if the teams i mentioned did let the other drivers do whatever they like, you think Vettel would had the championships it has, or Hamilton? Webber and Bottas in the eyes of the team where number 2 from team decision first

That's not correct. Webber was leading the world driver's championship going into Abu Dhabi 2020. If Red Bull had issued team orders in favour of points leader Webber in earlier rounds, then Vettel would have fallen short of the points needed to win the title and Alonso would have won the title.

Webber was more than happy to force Vettel off the track at the first corner of the British Grand Prix in 2010 IIRC! A vital part of Webber's championship bid that year!

Since anything can happen, team orders against Piastri are thus not necessary!

I dont really want team orders except to be safe in the 1st laps between teammates, no more no less. Either way, if you see what huppened yesterday where MCLaren throw the 1-2 for the 2-3 as normal, i rest my case.

[JordanMugen]

I dont really want team orders except to be safe in the 1st laps between teammates, no more no less. Either way, if you see what huppened yesterday where MCLaren throw the 1-2 for the 2-3 as normal, i rest my case.

I don't see the issue. McLaren has lost plenty of good results, e.g., a 1-2 in the 1989 Japanese Grand Prix. "That's motor racing."

McLaren have made their position clear. It's in Bruce McLaren's policies apparently! Hamilton was similarly a very poor wingman for team leader world champion Fernando Alonso.

Even if McLaren doesn't have this policy, Piastri likely has a contract that does not permit team orders against Piastri either at all or until Piastri is mathematically eliminated -- presumably Mark Webber insisted on that.

[Tvetovnato]

It would be the worst deal ever to have a rookie being able to dictate what the team can or can’t do when it comes to managing championships I can’t imagine McLaren would agree on that. If we are talking about a multi world champ who is in a position to place those kind of demands, then maybe, but a rookie??

[Gillian]

See RB and MB the previous years for example with Hamilton and imagine Bottas vX.0 to attack Hamilton like this in the 1st lap or Perez on Max ? in the 4th turn like this?

This is a poor example, because McLaren has Rosberg and Hamilton (or Ricciardo and Verstappen, or Webber and Vettel) not Bottas and Hamilton (or Perez and Verstappen).

Nope, if the teams i mentioned did let the other drivers do whatever they like, you think Vettel would had the championships it has, or Hamilton? Webber and Bottas in the eyes of the team where number 2 from team decision first that crippled their minds imo and accepted No2 status. I dont say this is the case now with Piastri because the kid is superfast (needs too much time still to keep his tyres in good position till the end etc) but jesus, you can wait 1-2 laps to clear ahead from the other teams and if Piastri was faster the team could had ask Norris to move aside to have the win for certain.
I dont know.. maybe i see too much on this... but i strongly believe teams must guide their drivers for the optimum result and yesterday MCLaren botched it, plain and simple.. no matter who was 1st or 2nd.

But... they did. Hamilton and Rosberg raced hard for 3 years. They raced so hard, it gave Verstappen a win on his RB debute! Hamilton only took 2 of a possible 3 because WDC because Mercedes let them race and didnt favour him. And Bottas - Hamilton was onesided because Bottas just has crappy race pace and Hamilton is way better! Same for Vettel - Webber. Like Jordan points out, Webber came close to a championship against Vettel. Vettel was just incredible over a single lap the year after and Webber naturally fell back. That all has nothing to with favouring a single driver.

[Gillian]

It would be the worst deal ever to have a rookie being able to dictate what the team can or can’t do when it comes to managing championships I can’t imagine McLaren would agree on that. If we are talking about a multi world champ who is in a position to place those kind of demands, then maybe, but a rookie??

But that literally happened in 2007! If Hamilton would have played ball, Alonso would have been champion! And I'm glad he didn't, because what would have been his chances going into the 2008 championship if he hadnt given his all and set his mark in 2007!?

Its exactly the same with Piastri. The team is not favoring one over the other, even willing to sacrifice Norris' points for Piastri (Hungary), so it totally makes sense for him to give everything to beat his teammate (as if you need any reason as a racing driver...)

[codetower]

McLaren probably should have set some rules, but i dont think it’s that easy. I’m sure Oscar’s got performance clauses in his contract based on points, average finishing position, number of wins, etc. Likely has sponsor bonuses as well. He also probably has equal status in his contract. Seniority alone isn’t enough to grant preference. We went through the same thing here recently with Carlos and Charles. It’s also one thing to ask a driver to take a #2 role to a 3,4,5 time champion, while you are just grateful to have a seat in F1… Lando hadn’t even won a single race until this year, and OP is very talented, has a race and a sprint win with only one season and a half under his belt.

[bananapeel23]

McLaren probably should have set some rules, but i dont think it’s that easy. I’m sure Oscar’s got performance clauses in his contract based on points, average finishing position, number of wins, etc. Likely has sponsor bonuses as well. He also probably has equal status in his contract. Seniority alone isn’t enough to grant preference. We went through the same thing here recently with Carlos and Charles. It’s also one thing to ask a driver to take a #2 role to a 3,4,5 time champion, while you are just grateful to have a seat in F1… Lando hadn’t even won a single race until this year, and OP is very talented, has a race and a sprint win with only one season and a half under his belt.

I feel like it was still too early for team orders. If they leave Baku with Norris within 50 points of Max, it's probably time for the team orders to come out, and I'm certain they will. I think both Piastri and Norris know this. Could those 10 points list between Hungary and Monza come back to bite Norris? Absolutely, but no one in their right mind would start using team orders before the summer break with a 90 point gap in the WDC.

[PlatinumZealot]

I am a Max Verstappen fan first and foremost. But this narrative that Mercedes and now McLaren should be falling over themselves to sign Max , with the lineups both teams have, is kinda ridiculous to me. Especially since Jos the boss, would raise hell at the first moment that one of Piastri, Norris, Russell or Antonelli gets one up on Max. If Max was in Lando's McLaren today, it would be a double DNF for the team.

Oooh...

Should have explained this before so we can understand your posts better.

[Tvetovnato]

It would be the worst deal ever to have a rookie being able to dictate what the team can or can’t do when it comes to managing championships I can’t imagine McLaren would agree on that. If we are talking about a multi world champ who is in a position to place those kind of demands, then maybe, but a rookie??

But that literally happened in 2007! If Hamilton would have played ball, Alonso would have been champion! And I'm glad he didn't, because what would have been his chances going into the 2008 championship if he hadnt given his all and set his mark in 2007!?

Its exactly the same with Piastri. The team is not favoring one over the other, even willing to sacrifice Norris' points for Piastri (Hungary), so it totally makes sense for him to give everything to beat his teammate (as if you need any reason as a racing driver...)

But it was a very different situation in 07. McLaren weren’t playing miracle catch-up as they are now. Hamilton led the championship from very early on, so if anyone should have been backed it could just as well have been him after half the season had passed. McLaren had their ”papaya” (or chrome?) policy back then as well, but that was their decision and not Hamilton’s through his contract as far as I know. Please correct me if I am wrong though!

I just think it sounds weird for a rookie with no experience to be able to come in and dictate what the team should do in a situation where it is certain that said rookie cannot win the championship. That bargaining power would be strange to assign to someone who hasn’t proven themselves yet.