Yeah Baku and Singapore probably don't provide brilliant data, and they've likely written off Singapore anyway
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So Zandvoort and Monza were not? What about the pace relative to the competition did they not learn already? There is a month break between Singapore and Austin. Austin is logical for updates.
Usually if all goes well in a season Singapore is the last race you bring updates. But since not all is well at RB and there is 4 weeks between Singapore and Austin you'd be mad not to shift the last updates to Austin. They want to start Baku with the Bahrain spec car. If they then gradually only put on the updated parts they are sure of that work then there is a chance they get to grips again with the car and work from there. Then the 4 week gap between Singapore and Austin would be very useful to design and produce altered parts for the updates that didn't work. Since next years regs are the same it could be money well spent.AR3-GP wrote: ↑05 Sep 2024, 16:03Austin update will be the first attempt to fix the car.
https://www.oe24.at/sport/motorsport/fo ... /605607662COTA will show whether Red Bull have found a solution, says Helmut Marko
"We have to find the point at which we took a wrong turn during development. We already have a few conclusive findings, now we have to implement the corresponding technical changes quickly so that the car has the right balance again."
"The next two races on the street circuits in Baku and Singapore are of little significance in this respect. Austin will show whether we can achieve the turnaround."
There were numerous times even before Miami that Max was complaining a lot during practice about the car's balance. But they usually managed to rectify it by qualifying, at least well enough to be competitive and have something Max could live with. Now those woes just dont seem to be getting rectified over the weekend.
Red Bull, at least when Newey was there, had been extremely good at not getting caught out, and adapting quickly to any issues they did have with the car. Like, do people really not understand that RB's dominance of 2009-2013 ended largely cuz in 2014 and for nearly half a decade afterwards, they had an uncompetitive engine? As soon as the engine became competitive again, they were right back at the front. They've honestly been the most consistently strong team on the grid for a long time if we're counting the things that were actually under their control.venkyhere wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024, 05:58Isn't it normal for a dominant team to overlook some flaws in their design, because they are supremely dominant over two seasons ? I think it is, because nothing succeeds like success, and reinforces confidence in a positive feedback loop, orienting the mind into confirmation bias, disallowing the mind to even register some subtle (but interconnected with everything) flaw introduced somewhere along the way, as they used RB19 as base and moved forward through 2023 into 2024. When I hear phrases like "we need to find out where we introduced the problem" from the team, it very likely looks like 'fixed an existing bug, introduced a new one'.
Look what happened to Mercedes coming off the 2014-2021 era, into the ground effects era - they refused to accept that there was a fundamental mistake with their starting concept, for a season and a half.
The fact that Redbull find themselves in this downward spiral is nothing out of the ordinary, IMHO. Look at all the well placed teams of 2024 - McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari -> they all struggled a lot, atleast for a season and a half, until they came alive this season. So it's not that Redbull are idiots and others are the smarter ones. This happens. The question is, how soon do they 'root cause'. And then how soon do they 'come up with the solution'. And then how soon 'they make the solution work on track'. I hope it doesn't take as long as the others, and 2025 begins well.
Also, even though Newey doesn't design aero, there was a saying he was crucial in getting the setup over the race weekend right. In 2021, there were a few weeks when he wasn't there and Red Bull struggled with balance.Seanspeed wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024, 12:13Red Bull, at least when Newey was there, had been extremely good at not getting caught out, and adapting quickly to any issues they did have with the car. Like, do people really not understand that RB's dominance of 2009-2013 ended largely cuz in 2014 and for half a decade afterwards, had an uncompetitive engine? As soon as the engine became competitive again, they were right back at the front. They've honestly been the most consistently strong team on the grid for a long time if we're counting the things that were actually under their control.venkyhere wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024, 05:58Isn't it normal for a dominant team to overlook some flaws in their design, because they are supremely dominant over two seasons ? I think it is, because nothing succeeds like success, and reinforces confidence in a positive feedback loop, orienting the mind into confirmation bias, disallowing the mind to even register some subtle (but interconnected with everything) flaw introduced somewhere along the way, as they used RB19 as base and moved forward through 2023 into 2024. When I hear phrases like "we need to find out where we introduced the problem" from the team, it very likely looks like 'fixed an existing bug, introduced a new one'.
Look what happened to Mercedes coming off the 2014-2021 era, into the ground effects era - they refused to accept that there was a fundamental mistake with their starting concept, for a season and a half.
The fact that Redbull find themselves in this downward spiral is nothing out of the ordinary, IMHO. Look at all the well placed teams of 2024 - McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari -> they all struggled a lot, atleast for a season and a half, until they came alive this season. So it's not that Redbull are idiots and others are the smarter ones. This happens. The question is, how soon do they 'root cause'. And then how soon do they 'come up with the solution'. And then how soon 'they make the solution work on track'. I hope it doesn't take as long as the others, and 2025 begins well.
I still have no idea why people are just overlooking the obvious - Newey leaves, and the team becomes lost in how to develop the car or get it in shape over a weekend. That's extremely unlikely to just be some coincidence. He was not some unimportant figure, no matter how much Horner tries to claim so.
it wasn't the understeer, it was oversteer on entry, when he corrected it, he initially kept trying to go around the following righthand corner, but felt it was too late to make the corner not losing too much time and he decided to cut the chicane, in order to lose less time. but it was already to of course it wasn't his thought process, it all happened in no time. anyways, turned out it was too late to cut the chicane properly, so he found himself somewhere in between and hit that bollard.
Red Bull will have to pray that Ferrari has a competitive package in Baku and Singapore if they want to stay comfortably in front of Norris. Red Bull is likely to be at their worst of the season in Baku and Singapore.