2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Emag wrote:
09 Sep 2024, 20:37
Vanja #66 wrote:
09 Sep 2024, 19:41
AR3-GP wrote:
09 Sep 2024, 18:32
In that analysis you wrote that Red Bull had good tire degradation in Miami. You even said Max's pace was metronomic. Along with the gap with Perez and Max being reasonable, it suggest that Red Bull is not the one who changed in Miami. It is the others. Red Bull definitely changed in Imola. That's when they mounted the new floor that plunged Perez into the wilderness and they were chewing through tires even more relative to the competition.
Perez was definitely slower than he was in earlier rounds compared to Max, gap in Bahrain was 22s, Jeddah and Japan it was 13s over entire races without SC. Then in Miami Checo had a 9.5s gap in 16 laps already, which would have been 33s over entire race. This pace gap continued after SC too, even though Checo had fresh Mediums and Max was on a bit used Hards

Ferrari practically deleted the pace gap in Miami without any upgrade, they literally even used the same rear wing every race. At the time, I believed this was the more real gap, as it was the first clean race for Leclerc. A few races later I understood I was wrong and then this info on what may have happend comes and fits like a puzzle to complete the picture
Agreed.

It's just impossible for McLaren to have overcome (what was) such a huge deficit in just one upgrade. It's obviously to be expected that the competition would have eventually caught up to RedBull, but after Miami it seemed more like someone had flipped a switch and cut RedBull's advantage in half more so than competitors catching up.
Yes it just seems far more plausible. RB losing a couple of tenths and McLaren finding 3-4 tenths is far more plausible and fits the data far better than McLaren gaining 6-7 tenths in one upgrade

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
09 Sep 2024, 19:41
Then in Miami Checo had a 9.5s gap in 16 laps already, which would have been 33s over entire race. T
He badly flat spotted his tires in a T1 divebomb on the first lap...

Image


I don't know what to tell you. Look at the qualy gaps between Verstappen and Perez before and after Imola update. It's 2-3 tenths in the first 5 races including Miami. Starting in Imola it was 6-7 tenths.
A lion must kill its prey.

Xyz22
Xyz22
123
Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
09 Sep 2024, 22:34
Vanja #66 wrote:
09 Sep 2024, 19:41
Then in Miami Checo had a 9.5s gap in 16 laps already, which would have been 33s over entire race. T
He badly flat spotted his tires in a T1 divebomb on the first lap...

https://i.postimg.cc/2yfnkwW5/image.png


I don't know what to tell you. Look at the qualy gaps between Verstappen and Perez before and after Imola update. It's 2-3 tenths in the first 5 races including Miami. Starting in Imola it was 6-7 tenths.
Classic European Perez average performance.

By the way, something clearly happened in Miami. Verstappen complained about the car the entire weekend, from quali to the sprint to the actual race (i.e. I can't turn the car, etc.). Ferrari out of nowhere was way closer to Red Bull compared to previous races which was absolutely strange.

At the time we thought they probably made a mistake with the setup, but it's highly likely that wasn't the reason.
McLaren didn't recover 0.7s on RB only with the Miami upgrade, that is simply impossible.

Mercedes made a huge jump when they ditched the aggressive front wing design for a more conventional one. Ferrari slightly improved with the Imola packaged, but not by much.
Last edited by Xyz22 on 09 Sep 2024, 22:57, edited 1 time in total.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Xyz22 wrote:
09 Sep 2024, 22:50
Classic European Perez average performance.
Red Bull brought upgrades at the start of the euro season in every year and this where the car became edgier and went away from Perez's preference. It's not coincidence.
A lion must kill its prey.

User avatar
Vanja #66
1562
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
09 Sep 2024, 22:34
I don't know what to tell you. Look at the qualy gaps between Verstappen and Perez before and after Imola update. It's 2-3 tenths in the first 5 races including Miami. Starting in Imola it was 6-7 tenths.
But why are we separating those two scenarios? Why would it be impossible that there was damage done in Miami and that Imola update set them in a wrong direction? I'd even think it would make sense that Imola update was problematic precisely because there was something done to the car in Miami they couldn't exploit any more, but designed their update around

If I'm honest, it would have been a genuine brilliant RBR move to integrate a gray area mechanical steering assist system to improve low speed performance. It would allow them to design a stiff suspension for better high speed performance and reduce the low speed traction losses that come with it
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Fer.Fan
Fer.Fan
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2015, 21:31

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
10 Sep 2024, 09:22
AR3-GP wrote:
09 Sep 2024, 22:34
I don't know what to tell you. Look at the qualy gaps between Verstappen and Perez before and after Imola update. It's 2-3 tenths in the first 5 races including Miami. Starting in Imola it was 6-7 tenths.
But why are we separating those two scenarios? Why would it be impossible that there was damage done in Miami and that Imola update set them in a wrong direction? I'd even think it would make sense that Imola update was problematic precisely because there was something done to the car in Miami they couldn't exploit any more, but designed their update around

If I'm honest, it would have been a genuine brilliant RBR move to integrate a gray area mechanical steering assist system to improve low speed performance. It would allow them to design a stiff suspension for better high speed performance and reduce the low speed traction losses that come with it
T-valve on brakes is missing on RB-20 sence Miami. That’s why Red Bull is not winning. Car balance is gone, no more hidden T-valve.

User avatar
chrisc90
41
Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Fer.Fan wrote:
10 Sep 2024, 10:56
Vanja #66 wrote:
10 Sep 2024, 09:22
AR3-GP wrote:
09 Sep 2024, 22:34
I don't know what to tell you. Look at the qualy gaps between Verstappen and Perez before and after Imola update. It's 2-3 tenths in the first 5 races including Miami. Starting in Imola it was 6-7 tenths.
But why are we separating those two scenarios? Why would it be impossible that there was damage done in Miami and that Imola update set them in a wrong direction? I'd even think it would make sense that Imola update was problematic precisely because there was something done to the car in Miami they couldn't exploit any more, but designed their update around

If I'm honest, it would have been a genuine brilliant RBR move to integrate a gray area mechanical steering assist system to improve low speed performance. It would allow them to design a stiff suspension for better high speed performance and reduce the low speed traction losses that come with it
T-valve on brakes is missing on RB-20 sence Miami. That’s why Red Bull is not winning. Car balance is gone, no more hidden T-valve.
Any proof?
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Praying for this Austin upgrade to work :mrgreen: if it works they can rescue the WDC. If not, well it's biggest technical failure in years. Probably bigger than merc's zeropod saga

Bill
Bill
8
Joined: 28 Apr 2018, 10:28

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

redbull front wing look simply it lacks sophistication compared to mercedes ,how did they miss the flexy wings for which they were the pioneer. The focused more on floor for downforce but made car more difficult to drive .the is were newey leadership direction would have been important.

Emag
Emag
84
Joined: 11 Feb 2019, 14:56

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Image

Things to note here :

1 - Australia removed because we don't have a marker on Max. Monaco removed because it's a procession with no real indication of true pace. Canada is removed for Ferrari since it's not representative data.

2 - Gap between Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes remains relatively stable throughout and the jumps are easily explainable. Mercedes basically admits they are struggling with the car after Saudi (car did not work on high-speed). They start to recover at Imola (and actually take another step in Monaco with the new front wing is quali gaps are to be taken into consideration). Mercedes is generally flattered by low-temp races, hence the "wavy" form in later races.
Ferrari hits trouble with porpoising after the Spain upgrade. They fix it somewhat in Hungary and Italy brings an even bigger improvement. Note that Ferrari is an outlier in Italy because they were the only one to 1-stop, whereas the gap between Merc, McLaren and RedBull is representative as they all 2-stopped.

3 - The only thing that sticks out like a sore thumb here is the MASSIVE chasm in performance deficit that is instantly overcome by all teams that are directly following RedBull after Miami. McLaren overturns a 0.2% deficit to Ferrari to a 0.2% advantage with their huge upgrade, but what is interesting is that Ferrari, without bringing any sort of upgrade also completely cut the gap to RedBull at Miami. Even Mercedes, which at this point was still struggling with their car, manage to get their best performance of the season relative to RedBull.

Alexf1
Alexf1
8
Joined: 28 Jun 2018, 18:52

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Anyone got the clip from GP Confidential where they report that Red Bull were asked by FIA to take this off the car? viewtopic.php?t=31566&start=1185

dialtone
dialtone
121
Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Alexf1 wrote:Anyone got the clip from GP Confidential where they report that Red Bull were asked by FIA to take this off the car? viewtopic.php?t=31566&start=1185
No car loses that much performance overnight, the failed update makes no sense as the team would see immediately it was Miami related. This makes more sense.

FNTC
FNTC
7
Joined: 03 Nov 2023, 21:27

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post


Newey talking about the RB18, 19 and to some extent 20 from around 17:40 onwards

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

FNTC wrote:
10 Sep 2024, 16:44

Newey talking about the RB18, 19 and to some extent 20 from around 17:40 onwards
Great interview. Interesting that he still thinks there are things about that RB18 concept that people still don't know.
A lion must kill its prey.

Xyz22
Xyz22
123
Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

FNTC wrote:
10 Sep 2024, 16:44

Newey talking about the RB18, 19 and to some extent 20 from around 17:40 onwards
Yeah this guy is just in another league