Flexiwings 2024

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Sevach
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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CMSMJ1 wrote:
16 Sep 2024, 14:12


It's not quite "fair" - agreed. The cat is out of the bag with it and perhaps a TD to squash this current iteration would be the most "fair" for the rest of them. Budget and so on should not have much sway. The precedent of the front wing being too hard really does shoot the FIA/Stewards in the foot.

On a broader scope though - it is clever, it makes more sense to have flex in the bodywork to allow for underpowered ICE in the next regs to ensure low drag and this solution is much more elegant that manually handled "double DRS"
Playing with loopholes always came with the risk that this investment you made would be rendered pointless in a few weeks... their approach towards the current flexibility row it's almost like they are encouraging cheating.

I wonder if this isn't about political power, in 2022 Toto got what he wanted, even if the results weren't as he expected... now that he was on the side of let it go, they let the FWs go.
Let's see which teams take which stance regarding the new RW issue.

Watto
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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Rikhart wrote:
16 Sep 2024, 10:22
Watto wrote:
16 Sep 2024, 06:21
bluechris wrote:
16 Sep 2024, 06:09

The trick they use in my eyes is very difficult to copy in this short time till the end of the championship. I don't know if they accidentally stepped on it or they really wanted that but seems much more difficult to make than the front wing flexing.
Isn't this simular to what Red Bull did a few years ago and the FIA put a stop to it. Probably without McLarens strange flap behavior

I would say it is very deliberate. But agree very hard to replicate properly with limited development time.



McLaren I think here have just been very smart in pushing the rules, Probably not what the rules intention but found something very grey in the wording somewhere they though they could exploit.
The rules for this are black and white, there is no grey anywhere. This is blatant cheating.
I think its well outside the 'spirit'of the rules they were quick to clamp down on rear wind flex a few years ago also Merc iirc had a read wing that had a gap 1mm bigger than allowed when closed iirc too. But legal as in it passes all the tests Even if the loads aren't really all that real world.

Unless Ferrari or RB lodge a protest.

Maybe the FIA issue a TD.

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TFSA
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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catent wrote:
16 Sep 2024, 04:53
No, it is absolutely in no way a disadvantage; it’s entirely and significantly advantageous.

The reason McLaren’s DRS delta is lower is because their speed without DRS is artificially higher due to the mini-DRS. Additionally, McLaren are almost certainly carrying relatively more downforce because they’re able to get the benefits of a fatter wing through slow-speed while shedding that drag in higher speed sections.

There is nothing disadvantageous about that wing at all. McLaren’s DRS delta and overall top speed reflected in that image is entirely part-and-parcel with the flexible wings and the advantages they bring.
Not entirely true. This design reduces downforce at high speeds, so it should be a disadvantage in high-speed corners.

Guess what Baku doesn't have any of. 😉 :lol:

stewie325
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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It wouldn't surprise me if McLaren have been making gains on their flexi wings as a result of conceptualising their '2026 car (even though they're not supposed to work on it yet).

Their front wing looks like a piece of active aero with that amount of flex, and it won't be surprising if their rear wing flex becomes just as extreme soon. The FIA won't care either way!

Andi76
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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SoulPancake13 wrote:
15 Sep 2024, 17:58
bluechris wrote:
15 Sep 2024, 17:50
Any team protested this or they all sleeping?
The guys at formu1a uno have said that Red Bull and Ferrari noticed it and are studying it. Likely will understand it and then make a complaint - if the FIA does nothing about it like they did w flexi front wing then they will implement their own
I don't think understanding is really the point here. Ferrari already did something like this in 1999. I think the problem is simply to calculate, design and then implement the whole thing under the existing test procedures and wing geometries. But maybe that's what you mean by "understanding".

SoulPancake13
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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Andi76 wrote:
16 Sep 2024, 21:06
SoulPancake13 wrote:
15 Sep 2024, 17:58
bluechris wrote:
15 Sep 2024, 17:50
Any team protested this or they all sleeping?
The guys at formu1a uno have said that Red Bull and Ferrari noticed it and are studying it. Likely will understand it and then make a complaint - if the FIA does nothing about it like they did w flexi front wing then they will implement their own
I don't think understanding is really the point here. Ferrari already did something like this in 1999. I think the problem is simply to calculate, design and then implement the whole thing under the existing test procedures and wing geometries. But maybe that's what you mean by "understanding".
Yes, that is what I meant, sorry for the imprecise language

KimiRai
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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There is talk of 2025 but not only. In the paddock there have been whispers for some time that some teams have already been working on an evolution of their wings (same design, but different carbon fiber processing) that could be on the track starting from the Austin weekend.

An extra job started after Mercedes (starting from the Monaco weekend) used wings with a behavior similar to that of McLaren. However, it risks being an effort (not indifferent) useful only for six Grand Prix.

The FIA ​​is under pressure. The teams (who no longer dare to come forward with a complaint) are asking for a legitimate clarification, and the load tests could be tightened starting next season. It's a bit of a joke for those who don't want to leave anything to chance in view of the end of the season, given that they will be called upon to develop a new construction procedure to create a new set of wings destined to take to the track for only six weekends.
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-al ... /10654953/

AR3-GP
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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Watto wrote:
17 Sep 2024, 02:30
Common sense I tend to think they are flouting the rules. But I think almost ever successful team does it. Red Bull back in the days were the masters of flexing wings and making it comply with any test, even if peak loads were well above it.

The changing of blown diffuser rules.Exhaust locations. Then the hold and cold blown diffusers, Merc with DAS. Various teams with variations of holes in the front wing running through the cockpit where the driver was required at times to cover the hold iirc was about stalling the rear wing? There were iirc rules about mechanical methods to make that work they got around it saying it was for driver cooling.


I do think the FIA perhaps picks and chooses when it wants to clamp down on such things.Where they pass every test but maybe not the intent of the test. I am very skeptical of the excuse it would take too long to have teams comply. I think if teams had to they could do it very very quickly - lose the advantage it provided but still pass every test etc.
Opening the DRS outside of DRS zones and whenever you want isn't flouting. It's much more troubling. Its like using flexible fuel lines to burn more fuel than allowed. Certain parts of the regulations have to maintain their sanctity. Activating the DRS partially is a step too far in my opinion.
A lion must kill its prey.

SealTheRealDeal
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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Exploiting loopholes is F1 tradition, but you can't have a sport with inconsistent standards for how loopholes are addressed.

It'd be awfully arbitrary if McLaren gets to keep this rear wing trick for the remainder of the year while Ferrari's flexi floor was actioned mid season in '22 and Aston's trick front wing was actioned midseason in '23.

The nearest recent comparison I can think of is Aston's "armchair wing" in '22. But that was a far cry from passive DRS, and would have been easily copied by the other teams if it really did offer a significant advantage.

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deadhead
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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Image

Brilliant

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JordanMugen
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
15 Sep 2024, 17:51
Whether the total deflection of the whole assembly is legal or not? I carry no opinion. It passes current testing regs and all teams are always at extracting the maximum out of regulation sets. I see a very intricate clever design that clearly meets all design requirements.
Perhaps the only thing would be the DRS Gap increasing ever so slightly but please refer to the first part of this reply for why I’m doubtful
The FIA could simply ask to inspect the rear wing flap (removed from the car) and if it seems to be unusually flexible, ask McLaren to remanufacture it using a layup that is as stiff as possible (to the FIA's satisfaction when comparing old and new wing flaps)? :?: :)

A flap is a pretty simple component after all -- it's much less significant than the mainplane. If McLaren have not manufactured the flap to be deliberately flexible, they will surely have no objection to this request?

Technical Regulations:
3.10.10c. There must be no relative movement between the constituent parts of the DRS Bodywork.

...


3.10.10 g. Any alteration of the incidence of the uppermost closed section may only be commanded by direct driver input and controlled using the control electronics specified in Article 8.3.
One supposes Red Bull or Ferrari could protest the McLaren wing flap under these rules, if they want? :?:

Where the Red Bull rear wing mounts rotated the entire wing backwards in 2021, so that the relative parts of the DRS system had (approximately) the same relationship, on the McLaren the DRS slot gap is clearly opening slightly which contravenes the DRS regulation.

Similarly the angle of incidence of the flap is changing without driver input, which also contravenes the rule.

Andi76
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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deadhead wrote:
17 Sep 2024, 05:24
https://postimg.cc/RJnF8Qw0

Brilliant
Great presentation, thanks for that!

In this thread often read phrases like "ingenious" or "not to implement on other cars" are used. So I would like to remind here - aeroelasticity has been used deliberately and purposefully in F1 for 40 years! And there was already a similar solution on the Ferrari F248 in 2006, where the gap between the elements of the rear wing under load changed (one wonders whether Stella, at Ferrari at the time, remembered this idea).
So there is nothing "ingenious" about it, nor is there anything "not to implement", because every team knows exactly how to do it! Rory Byrne started this with his Benetton in the 80s with his front and rear wing brackets. In 1990 or 1991 Sergio Rinland developed a concave underbody for Forti whose sides curved downwards, in 1996 and 1997 Ferrari and McLaren had flexible front wings in 1999 flexible rear wings that bent backwards and diffusers that bent downwards for higher downforce. Especially in the late 1990s and early 2000s, aeroelasticity was used everywhere and Ferrari with Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne led the way and developed the flexible underbody in 2003, which was "copied" by Ferrari and Red Bull in 2022. In 2006 there was the "Slot-Gap Rear-Wing" where the gap between the lower and upper flap widened and the upper flap bent.

So what is done today is in no way "ingenious" or anything else - it all has been there before and every team knows exactly how it works and every team can replicate it and implement it in their car. It's just a lot of FEA work to get it in line with the load tests and the technology and talent in the design and carbon department determines whether the part bends more or less than the competition and how good the effect is and how exactly it is achieved.

Ultimately, aero balance is far more important and decisive than drag reduction, which is more of a positive side effect, even if this is, of course, just as intentional and deliberate. But aerobalance is ultimately much more important. Like the 1996 McLaren, today's F1 cars have a "natural" aero balance problem or the balance and weight distribution is not as you would like it to be, but first lets stay with the McLaren of 1996.

The 1996 McLaren had the problem that the the flap under aero loading twisted backwards, unloading the front downforce slightly. On corner entry when the driver braked, the flap load picked up again increasing front downforce causing oversteer. On corner exit the aero load increased, the flap twisted backwards again causing understeer at the exit of high speed corners. Aeroelasticity was the solution.

Finite element analysis on the mainplane and flap carbon composites was used to introduce some aeroelasticity in the mainplane. Neil Oatley and Matthew Jeffries designed the mainplane to have a 'tuned' beam stiffness so that at the outboard extremities it deflected towards the road by a prescribed amount and therefore increasing the downforce created by the mainplane as the speed increased. This occurred as the flap angled backwards which reduced the flap downforce. They managed to create a combined mainplane and flap aero map that was much more balanced as the two loading conditions cancelled each other out with speed.

Partly due to the regulations, partly because it is natural, today's F1 cars have certain characteristics and lack front-end grip at turn-in and rear-end grip at high-speed corners. So you use aeroelasticity to compensate for this. At low speed, you try to get a balance that gives more front end grip to get the car to react to the steering input especially on turn-in, at high speed you try to get the balance more rearward to give the car rear end stability. So basically, aeroelasticity is used in the same way as in the McLaren 1996.

I hope this almost 30-year-old example makes it clear that there is nothing ingenious behind today's Flexi-Wings or that a team has developed something here that others could not bring to their car. All these flexible bodywork elements have been around in F1 for a very long time and
whether it's bodywork parts that bend, twist, turn, bend backwards, open a gap or anything else - it's all been there and used for decades! Nothing ingenious or new! You're at least 25 years too late! Ultimately, it's just a bit of FEA work and design work to bring this to every car. The decisive and important point and how much it brings is ultimately only how controlled and precise you can get it and achieve the desired shift in balance. And how good the FEA, carbon and design department is. But the thing itself - larger gaps, bending, twisting, etc. - everyone knows exactly how to do it. But the more accurately and precisely you can achieve the desired shift in the aero balance and also the compromise with regard to the different tracks, the better the car will be. But also this is nothing new and was already the case almost 20 years ago.
Last edited by Andi76 on 19 Sep 2024, 07:00, edited 1 time in total.

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joseff
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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JordanMugen wrote:
17 Sep 2024, 06:49
The FIA could simply ask to inspect the rear wing flap (removed from the car) and if it seems to be unusually flexible, ask McLaren to remanufacture it using a layup that is as stiff as possible (to the FIA's satisfaction when comparing old and new wing flaps)? :?: :)
I think, it's not only flexibility on the flap that causes this behavior. If we imagine the Mclaren wing to be supported at 3 points: endplates and center stay, it seems to me that the center stay is more rigid than the endplates, causing the mainplane to flex. The flap then twists in sympathy to changes in the mainplane/endplates.

So for other teams to adopt this wing, they need to redesign the whole wing assembly: center stay, mainplane, endplates, and flap

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Vanja #66
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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The "only" issue with rear wing flexing is simple, there are datum points for (live) video measurement and we've been here 3 years ago already. This much flexing is beyond reasonable deformation and undoubtedly constitutes a moveable aerodynamic device. And it's quite clear why FIA is looking through the fingers, while FOM is rubbing hands in delight
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

n_anirudh
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Re: Flexiwings 2024

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Its simple to follow regs

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -04-25.pdf

3.10.10 Drag Reduction System (DRS)
The entire RW Flap described in Article 3.10.1, including any gurney if fitted, part of the
rearward most section from any regions of the Rear Wing Tip described in Article 3.10.5
where there are exactly two sections in an intersection with any plane that contains the Xaligned axis [Y,Z]= [480, 670], and the portions of the Rear Wing Separators defined in 3.10.6
that are attached to these components, may be rotated about a fixed axis whilst the car is in
motion. All bodywork to be rotated shall be known as “DRS Bodywork”

c. There must be no relative movement between the constituent parts of the DRS Bodywork
g. Any alteration of the incidence of the uppermost closed section may only be
commanded by direct driver input and controlled using the control electronics specified
in Article 8.3

c - There is no clarity if this is when the car is in motion or not.
Wrt the Mclaren wing, there is relative movement - but then we can always go back to say "no body is ever stiff and only static tests need to be done"

g - with the car in the lead, the DRS incidence should not have been activated by driver input and if the incidence is changing it is contravening the rules of the sport.