Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
mwillems
44
Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

Which is besides the point. The suggestion is that there is substance to the claims of something far more serious.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

dialtone
dialtone
121
Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

Ferrari got nailed on the engine thanks to claims for former employees that something wasn't right and FIA/FOM were absolutely RELENTLESS on finding the wrong spend the whole season adding sensors and starting from the point that Ferrari was cheating.

Cheating or not for RBR, it's really disappointing how much more cavalier is the FIA approaching these last couple of events between RBR and Mclaren.

User avatar
motobaleno
11
Joined: 31 Mar 2011, 13:58

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

Cassius wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 08:50

What a low quality post with a lot of insinuations. They solved the porpoising through the smart solutions of the hundreds of engineers in the vehicle dynamics and aero departments. Already in the 2nd week of testin in 2021. This device was changed just before Singapore. RB has not been the best until Miami 2024 because they can have a lower floor in qualy and correct for the race.

As this device design was uploaded just before the Singapore GP it has nothing to do with the sudden jump in performance between Friday and Saturday we have seen in some GPs.

No engineer wants to win through illegal designs. Red Bull and all engineers in F1 teams want to develop smart solutions that push the envelope in terms of engineering but are still within the letter of the rule.

This device was likely there to aid in quick set up changes.
Horner clearly stated the device have been in the car for 3 years. Singapore GP was when they modified it after FIA warning

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/306685/r ... re-gp.html

User avatar
Vanja #66
1562
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

dialtone wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 21:20
Ferrari got nailed on the engine thanks to claims for former employees that something wasn't right and FIA/FOM were absolutely RELENTLESS on finding the wrong spend the whole season adding sensors and starting from the point that Ferrari was cheating.

Cheating or not for RBR, it's really disappointing how much more cavalier is the FIA approaching these last couple of events between RBR and Mclaren.
But but but... Ferrari International Assistance!
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
14
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 17:33

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

mwillems wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 21:15
Which is besides the point. The suggestion is that there is substance to the claims of something far more serious.
If there is substance then it could become one of the biggest scandals in F1 history, if they've used it over 3 seasons and broken parc ferme rules across those 3 years? It calls into question the integrity of the sport. I'm all for pushing the limits of the rules to find an advantage. But full blown cheating? I can't stand that. One thing is for sure, if they have been cheating? Max will be off, I can't see him sticking around.

I'd say the same thing if McLaren, Ferrari or Mercedes were suspected of cheating.

It's a wait and see game. It could all just be a storm in a teacup.

User avatar
chrisc90
41
Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

mwillems wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 21:15
Which is besides the point. The suggestion is that there is substance to the claims of something far more serious.
Its not though. You could make every member of staff in the field do the same. Its a declaration that you have never 'cheated'.

Aint no team going to go and say, "hey look, Zak wants us to sign this piece of paper to say we never cheated. Maybe we shouldn't sign it and show us as being guilty"

I wonder if Zak knew that making a mini-DRS trick wasn't fully legal.
Wonder if Ferrari knew that fooling FIA flow sensors wasn't legal.
Wonder if Mercedes having special qualifying modes wasn't legal.
Wonder if AMR knew a flexi-nose cone wasn't legal.
Wonder if Ferrari knew a flexi plank wasn't legal.
Wonder if Red Bull knew flexi rear wings wasn't legal.

I'm sure you can find COUNTLESS examples of teams pushing the boundaries of the rulebook over the years.

I don't agree that any team should be able to change the car when its in parc ferme, and its wrong. But unless Zak can miraculously come up with some evidence to prove Red Bull were altering the bib, then he just needs to go back to his office and shut up and stop being the annoying character that he is.
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

LM10
LM10
121
Joined: 07 Mar 2018, 00:07

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 21:53
dialtone wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 21:20
Ferrari got nailed on the engine thanks to claims for former employees that something wasn't right and FIA/FOM were absolutely RELENTLESS on finding the wrong spend the whole season adding sensors and starting from the point that Ferrari was cheating.

Cheating or not for RBR, it's really disappointing how much more cavalier is the FIA approaching these last couple of events between RBR and Mclaren.
But but but... Ferrari International Assistance!
The feeling to see Ferrari beat the FIA-British-team-alliance is even better this way. =D>
Last edited by LM10 on 21 Oct 2024, 22:28, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
chrisc90
41
Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

taperoo2k wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 22:19
mwillems wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 21:15
Which is besides the point. The suggestion is that there is substance to the claims of something far more serious.
If there is substance then it could become one of the biggest scandals in F1 history, if they've used it over 3 seasons and broken parc ferme rules across those 3 years? It calls into question the integrity of the sport. I'm all for pushing the limits of the rules to find an advantage. But full blown cheating? I can't stand that. One thing is for sure, if they have been cheating? Max will be off, I can't see him sticking around.

I'd say the same thing if McLaren, Ferrari or Mercedes were suspected of cheating.

It's a wait and see game. It could all just be a storm in a teacup.
Wonder if McLaren knew that the rules of flexible bodywork, which is clearly outlined in the rules, when they designed a Mini-DRS system by allowing the DRS flap ot flex creating a bigger gap and less drag.

The FIA havent even issued a TD for it, or incorporated another test to measure the flex of the DRS flap. Thats how night and day the rules already are for it being illegal.
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

User avatar
mwillems
44
Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

chrisc90 wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 22:26
mwillems wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 21:15
Which is besides the point. The suggestion is that there is substance to the claims of something far more serious.
Its not though. You could make every member of staff in the field do the same. Its a declaration that you have never 'cheated'.

Aint no team going to go and say, "hey look, Zak wants us to sign this piece of paper to say we never cheated. Maybe we shouldn't sign it and show us as being guilty"

I wonder if Zak knew that making a mini-DRS trick wasn't fully legal.
Wonder if Ferrari knew that fooling FIA flow sensors wasn't legal.
Wonder if Mercedes having special qualifying modes wasn't legal.
Wonder if AMR knew a flexi-nose cone wasn't legal.
Wonder if Ferrari knew a flexi plank wasn't legal.
Wonder if Red Bull knew flexi rear wings wasn't legal.

I'm sure you can find COUNTLESS examples of teams pushing the boundaries of the rulebook over the years.

I don't agree that any team should be able to change the car when its in parc ferme, and its wrong. But unless Zak can miraculously come up with some evidence to prove Red Bull were altering the bib, then he just needs to go back to his office and shut up and stop being the annoying character that he is.
I'm not bothered about the paper he wants people to sign. I suspect Zak probably feels the same as you that they won't sign it. it's more the suggestion that there are people not telling the truth.

But from my perspective, I'm interested because it appears some folks in the pit are said to be corroborating that Red Bull made changes in Parc Ferme. I guess it depends who these people are. Someone who thought they saw something is different from an an ex engineer that did the change or witnessed it.

For sure, teams push the limits. But lowering the floor in Parc Ferme is an issue greater by magnitudes than most of the cheeky trickery that all the teams get up to, apart from the Ferrari engine situation, which I would suggest was handled in an odd manner. If you want to think otherwise, I won't try and talk you down.

But with the exodus from the team and some of the bitterness from current and former employees, you do think this won't go away soon.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

User avatar
dren
226
Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

I wonder if it could have been some time release device that is pre-set to modify itself over night or something along those lines.
Honda!

Watto
Watto
4
Joined: 10 Mar 2022, 15:12

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

mwillems wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 22:56
chrisc90 wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 22:26
mwillems wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 21:15
Which is besides the point. The suggestion is that there is substance to the claims of something far more serious.
Its not though. You could make every member of staff in the field do the same. Its a declaration that you have never 'cheated'.

Aint no team going to go and say, "hey look, Zak wants us to sign this piece of paper to say we never cheated. Maybe we shouldn't sign it and show us as being guilty"

I wonder if Zak knew that making a mini-DRS trick wasn't fully legal.
Wonder if Ferrari knew that fooling FIA flow sensors wasn't legal.
Wonder if Mercedes having special qualifying modes wasn't legal.
Wonder if AMR knew a flexi-nose cone wasn't legal.
Wonder if Ferrari knew a flexi plank wasn't legal.
Wonder if Red Bull knew flexi rear wings wasn't legal.

I'm sure you can find COUNTLESS examples of teams pushing the boundaries of the rulebook over the years.

I don't agree that any team should be able to change the car when its in parc ferme, and its wrong. But unless Zak can miraculously come up with some evidence to prove Red Bull were altering the bib, then he just needs to go back to his office and shut up and stop being the annoying character that he is.
I'm not bothered about the paper he wants people to sign. I suspect Zak probably feels the same as you that they won't sign it. it's more the suggestion that there are people not telling the truth.

But from my perspective, I'm interested because it appears some folks in the pit are said to be corroborating that Red Bull made changes in Parc Ferme. I guess it depends who these people are. Someone who thought they saw something is different from an an ex engineer that did the change or witnessed it.

For sure, teams push the limits. But lowering the floor in Parc Ferme is an issue greater by magnitudes than most of the cheeky trickery that all the teams get up to, apart from the Ferrari engine situation, which I would suggest was handled in an odd manner. If you want to think otherwise, I won't try and talk you down.

But with the exodus from the team and some of the bitterness from current and former employees, you do think this won't go away soon.
If changes were made that is a far worse offense I tend agree.

If they get proof that there made you would expect penalties not an issue with that. It does just seem an odd way to so something so sneaky - yes I get its hidden down where scrutineers can't see exactly what is going on. For that reason I am fine with them getting RBR to remove it. Just removes all doubt. I'll grant one thing the little demo they did in full view could well be done to make it look far more clumsy that it really is . Just I feel its done in a way that is still very very open to a scrutineer thinking 'wtf is going on thats not like any other team does so regularly. Different scrutineers, at different race not one of them picked up that and though something was odd.


I will grant one things here too, that Toto and Ferrari have commented on it has be a little curious - Take the assemetric brakes where they all dismissed it. So I do think that rules that out really - I guess here ia a difference is this would be an absolute black and white breach of rules where that (braking) might have been a sneaking way around a rule.


You have a design that was on an open server - a procedure that was largely done in place view scrutieets where you risk one of them just saying what is this and hope you can explain it away.

With that too I guess you would need to see a time lapse really of just how much is done to a car in parc ferme to know how achievable it is. Is there anything that actually stops someone from changing the ride height in the normal way. A quick look through the parc ferme conditions body panels can be removed for clearing fluids removed - floor removed for cleaning, drain oils/fluids from under the car? gives easy access to under the car and...tend to thing it is perhaps more hidden unless a scritineer is under the car with you where tight spaces i agree, but .....


As for Toto and why is it even there though. I think that comment is perhaps a little mischievous I think within the rules its reason for being there is actually fair and sound if it allows quicker changes to ride height during FP without having to remove the floor. Look at how tight FP runs are in sprint weekends, saving 5 minutes when you have an hour to run before no changes to setup could be critical.


Zac's why does the FIA need a seal over it unless... again, maybe RBR are just happy ro try and avoid doubt. If you think its a problem, we can still change it in the normal way seal it off, Thats fine.



As much too, I accept Horners it cant be accessed when the car is assembled can be misleading when cars can be pulled apart to a certain extent under parc ferme so that can be misleading too and something you would say too if you knew changes had been made. Not exactly a lie but misleading too and....

djones
djones
20
Joined: 17 Mar 2005, 15:01

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

dren wrote:
22 Oct 2024, 20:57
I wonder if it could have been some time release device that is pre-set to modify itself over night or something along those lines.
Years ago it was spoken about that Redbull had a time release valve on their suspension. It would run lower in qualifying then raise over the following hours so it was compliant for the race.

n_anirudh
n_anirudh
28
Joined: 25 Jul 2008, 02:43

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

chrisc90 wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 22:28
taperoo2k wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 22:19
mwillems wrote:
21 Oct 2024, 21:15
Which is besides the point. The suggestion is that there is substance to the claims of something far more serious.
If there is substance then it could become one of the biggest scandals in F1 history, if they've used it over 3 seasons and broken parc ferme rules across those 3 years? It calls into question the integrity of the sport. I'm all for pushing the limits of the rules to find an advantage. But full blown cheating? I can't stand that. One thing is for sure, if they have been cheating? Max will be off, I can't see him sticking around.

I'd say the same thing if McLaren, Ferrari or Mercedes were suspected of cheating.

It's a wait and see game. It could all just be a storm in a teacup.
Wonder if McLaren knew that the rules of flexible bodywork, which is clearly outlined in the rules, when they designed a Mini-DRS system by allowing the DRS flap ot flex creating a bigger gap and less drag.

The FIA havent even issued a TD for it, or incorporated another test to measure the flex of the DRS flap. Thats how night and day the rules already are for it being illegal.
No TD, but they have changed the location of the monitoring dots closer to the extremities of the flap.

User avatar
motobaleno
11
Joined: 31 Mar 2011, 13:58

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-jo ... /10666271/

this article is important because it definetely confirm that some previous RB employer confirm the use of the trick during parc ferme . Remarkably not nugnes speculation: indirectly but robust confirm by tombazis statements. Then Tombazis add that "Well, we must always consider that we are dealing with human beings. We are dealing with changing situations, with people with old and new loyalties. It's not our intention to go as far as using lie detectors or subjecting people to interrogations with lights shining in their faces or anything like that. That is not what we want: I have worked in several teams and hired technicians from other teams. Sometimes there is a tendency to want to spill the beans on what one did before, but I realised that sometimes you have to interpret these comments very carefully. And you can't just build accusations on comments like that."
That can be uderstood (or not...it depends) but he definetely confirm that such accusations exist and for sure it is not a nothingburger. Here we are talking not of small guys it is people like Rob Marshall who have reputation to defend.
From tombazis word we can guess that FIA does not want to proceed but, if there are declaration fron Marshall and other of this level, we can for sure think that in the pitlane they consider RB cheating as very near to absolutely certain

dialtone
dialtone
121
Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

FIA is a bunch of clowns. Investigate like you did other teams in the past. Enough with these nonsense catering excuses.

Especially when this team went from dominating to being 3rd best car in space of a handful of races, you have whistleblowers… what more do you need to investigate?