2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[Darth-Piekus]

In that case both Lando and especially Max have to learn from Oscar Piastri how to dive bomb without sending the other off the track.

[FittingMechanics]

I guess there is the question of who is defending. Lando was actually ahead before the braking zone, if not by much. When is an overtake complete and was Max defending or actually attacking by going late on the brakes?

The rules around the apex are cut and dry and from that perspective, if Lando is the attacker then it has been applied correctly. But I am curious as to what "completes" an overtake, having a complete car length ahead before a braking zone itself does seem like it should be sufficient. I think that if there is a rule clarification, this is perhaps where it could be in part.

Interestingly, I remember asking this question before, of what completes an overtake... time to do some forum searching, when and why has this come up previously...?

To me the overtake is not complete unless the attacking car is fully ahead (no overlap and probably out of the corner). Or to make it simpler, if the driver started the straight ahead (especially fully ahead) of the other driver, he is the defending driver until the other overtakes fully without overlap. Just because Ricciardo licks the stamp and sends it doesn't make him a defender at the moment he gets ahead of the defender. To me this seems like common sense.

But to make things simpler, they should remove the whole who is a defender thing. It should be a simple rule - you have to leave a space if there is an overlap. Regardless if you are defender or the attacker. I could accept need for some kind of "overlap percentage" but to me this seems like it will just make things that much messier, drivers will probably claim they were over/under the percentage and then the stewards will have to go and measure this. Just a mess. With "always leave a space when overlap" it is simple and the driver who is being forced wide can always just hold his line and the crash will be the fault of the other driver. It doesn't make sense to have different rules depending on who is the defender. Attacker has to leave the space, defender doesn't, it's just complicated.

Go with the simple solution (always leave a space), it will lead to better racing, more overtakes and action which is all positive.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

In that case both Lando and especially Max have to learn from Oscar Piastri how to dive bomb without sending the other off the track.

Of course, but Verstappen also made many overtakes at the beginning of his career in the midst of the Mercedes domination and took many victories. At the same time, Piastri could learn consistency from Verstappen how to be on top race after race, and it's silly to compare Verstappen to Piastri who hasn't battle championship.

[Darth-Piekus]

Many overtakes indeed. A lot of them ended in crashes though. Daniel Ricciardo took the same amount of victories in the same era so I don't see why is that so special. Do you know what is special though? Vettel winning in a Torro Rosso, Damon Hill getting 2nd place in an Arrows, Michael Schumacher winning in 1996 Ferrari elephant car, Fernando Alonso bringing the worst Mclaren Honda in history to two 5th places and getting two championships on an inferior Renault against Ferrari and Schumacher at his best, Senna winning on a Tolemann and finally Lewis Hamilton beating two world champions at their best on his rookie year. Ah I forgot Oscar Piastri beating Max Verstappen on a sprint in a leagues inferior car. I agree that he has to be more consistent but it's his second year. He is performing much better than Max did in his first two years. The man that you have in the picture was so close to toppling the Ferrari-Schumacher-Todt-Brawn combination in 2003 with a previous years's car losing only for 2 points.

[Farnborough]

Well-described divebombs. Here is an onboard video of those:

Yea a very valid video, not the best from Lando. Ive noticed how we haven’t seen anything like that since from Lando.
He’s learnt from Austria and moved on/ improved.
(This isn’t aimed at you) Folk forget that this is Landos first race winning season, he’s learning on the job, simple as.
I feel sorry for Lando sometimes, he gets the mick taken out of him for driving a ‘tractor’ at McLaren, he gets the mick taken out of him for not winning a race, now it seems he’s getting the mick taken out of him/ criticised for not leading the WDC.
Good job the salary is decent

These dive bombs are best from Lando. If you don't try, you're hardly going to succeed. Dive bombs are wrongly stigmatized; they are hard racing and should be part of the game when fighting for a championship. That is one reason why 2021 was the best season of all time.

At risk from being in the "wrong" thread here, but do agree they are part of racing in this current format.

Hold your horses everybody, there's more ....

We've arrived at a set of technical rules that, more or less, stop car to car differential ... power output, deployment, tire heating, tire pressure limits, fuel flow rate, overall aero leading down into very similar design through "box" constraints, etc etc. Also gear change automation with no mistake from driver, add in a whole team of analysts in race behaviour, strategy and the computational power that enacts .... could go on further, but the stream of this is clear very little differential in "deployment" of car driver energy etc from point to point on the track. Add in tire stint analysis and strategy too

Add in the track topography, corner 1 &12 at COTA were purposely designed to have very wide approach, difficult to defend and with uncertainty in outcome from that specific zone.

The driver leaves the previous corner , deploys the same as opponent, arrives at next corner ALMOST to soon for DRS effect to play out fully (China springs to mind here in being long enough) then all the action is going to be in braking.

Is there any wonder why most contention comes down to this ? In a head to head ?

It's like two men just punching each other in the face for sport. Ooh, hold on, there is a sport that does that ?

The contention expressed here, in this thread, is just inevitable. They (rules etc) just push it down to that one area of trying to make a difference with few other choices.

Itll happen continually with such concise control of so many elements such that the cars are all going at so close a pace next to their on track competitors. This is neither driver's fault, more the task that's been handed to each of them.

We could all pinpoint a track and corner where this will develop from our collective viewing experience, it will be part of this championship, whether we like it or not.

Overtake around the outside are DFFICULT and always cherished when someone pulls that off. Many fail though, that's the nature of this beast.

[Big Gun]

Imo opinion watching it I knew Lando was gunna get a penalty because of how the stewarts ruled earlier incidents.
After been pushed wide Lando should of let Max pass out ahead of that corner and by the rules Max would of got the Penalty.

Think Alonso would of backed off so Max got the penalty, but Lando doesnt have that cunning yet of a Alonso or Max.

off topic, Piastri stocks have fallen imo. Lando is just faster in everyway.

1) Max, Lando, Lecerc
2) Hamilton, Alonso, Russel.
3) Sainz, Piastri, Hulk.

Piastri isnt in the top 6 of best drivers of this moment, just lacks about 2 tenths.

Piastri has a ton of room to grow. I see no reason why his "stocks have fallen". He's no worse than Lando, Leclerc, or Russell in their second years.

Current Alonso is not Tier 2 IMO. I'd argue that Russell and Hamilton's inconsistency this year might put them out of Tier 2 as well. Some of that is the car but they haven't been their best. Lando and Leclerc are however.

Im talking pure pace. IMO Alonso is way more consistent than Hamilton and Russell, also imo Alonso would be a lot closer to Max in the championship than Lando, plus in this last race Alonso's racecraft is second to none and im sure he would of found a way past Max, or would of gotten Max a penalty.

I should clarify, that my ranking was more on Qualy Pace as for overall I have Max,Lando,Lecerc, Hamilton and Alonso still in tier 1.

Tier 1 drivers would beat any other driver in equal machinery thats not also in Tier 1 over a season. thats how I rate my Tier 1 guys.
Piastri just doesnt have the X factor, he is always behind Lando.

[Darth-Piekus]

I would say to leave Oscar alone. He is in just his second year and he will learn.

[Big Gun]

I would say to leave Oscar alone. He is in just his second year and he will learn.

Brundle has always said that after 3 years, that thats basically the drivers level.
So next year he gunna need to find 2 tenths to push Norris

[Jurgen von Diaz]

I would say to leave Oscar alone. He is in just his second year and he will learn.

Brundle has always said that after 3 years, that thats basically the drivers level.
So next year he gunna need to find 2 tenths to push Norris

You guys remember when Norris took a beating from Sainz the first two years? I wouldn't be concerned about Piastri when he has performed at this level against a prime Norris. I still expect Piastri to give Norris a hard time next year because he has more balls than Norris when it comes down to wheel-to-wheel fighting and race starts. Like you said, Piastri is lacking raw speed compare to Norris.

[mwillems]

I guess there is the question of who is defending. Lando was actually ahead before the braking zone, if not by much. When is an overtake complete and was Max defending or actually attacking by going late on the brakes?

The rules around the apex are cut and dry and from that perspective, if Lando is the attacker then it has been applied correctly. But I am curious as to what "completes" an overtake, having a complete car length ahead before a braking zone itself does seem like it should be sufficient. I think that if there is a rule clarification, this is perhaps where it could be in part.

Interestingly, I remember asking this question before, of what completes an overtake... time to do some forum searching, when and why has this come up previously...?

To me the overtake is not complete unless the attacking car is fully ahead (no overlap and probably out of the corner). Or to make it simpler, if the driver started the straight ahead (especially fully ahead) of the other driver, he is the defending driver until the other overtakes fully without overlap. Just because Ricciardo licks the stamp and sends it doesn't make him a defender at the moment he gets ahead of the defender. To me this seems like common sense.

But to make things simpler, they should remove the whole who is a defender thing. It should be a simple rule - you have to leave a space if there is an overlap. Regardless if you are defender or the attacker. I could accept need for some kind of "overlap percentage" but to me this seems like it will just make things that much messier, drivers will probably claim they were over/under the percentage and then the stewards will have to go and measure this. Just a mess. With "always leave a space when overlap" it is simple and the driver who is being forced wide can always just hold his line and the crash will be the fault of the other driver. It doesn't make sense to have different rules depending on who is the defender. Attacker has to leave the space, defender doesn't, it's just complicated.

Go with the simple solution (always leave a space), it will lead to better racing, more overtakes and action which is all positive.

I think he was fully ahead though, all of his car was in front of Verstappen's before the braking zone. Feel free to correct me, but this is my view and what I can see. So it is an interesting one. Totally fine with how they looked at it, but I feel like the idea of what completes an overtake is part of the grey area, I'd dearly love for someone to show me where this is defined. If it isn't defined then I have to say, I would be very baffled to understand a sport that values overtaking as much as anything else, but hasn't defined what an overtake is and what the rules are that define an overtake.

[JPower]

Imo opinion watching it I knew Lando was gunna get a penalty because of how the stewarts ruled earlier incidents.
After been pushed wide Lando should of let Max pass out ahead of that corner and by the rules Max would of got the Penalty.

Think Alonso would of backed off so Max got the penalty, but Lando doesnt have that cunning yet of a Alonso or Max.

off topic, Piastri stocks have fallen imo. Lando is just faster in everyway.

1) Max, Lando, Lecerc
2) Hamilton, Alonso, Russel.
3) Sainz, Piastri, Hulk.

Piastri isnt in the top 6 of best drivers of this moment, just lacks about 2 tenths.

Piastri has a ton of room to grow. I see no reason why his "stocks have fallen". He's no worse than Lando, Leclerc, or Russell in their second years.

Current Alonso is not Tier 2 IMO. I'd argue that Russell and Hamilton's inconsistency this year might put them out of Tier 2 as well. Some of that is the car but they haven't been their best. Lando and Leclerc are however.

Im talking pure pace. IMO Alonso is way more consistent than Hamilton and Russell, also imo Alonso would be a lot closer to Max in the championship than Lando, plus in this last race Alonso's racecraft is second to none and im sure he would of found a way past Max, or would of gotten Max a penalty.

I should clarify, that my ranking was more on Qualy Pace as for overall I have Max,Lando,Lecerc, Hamilton and Alonso still in tier 1.

Tier 1 drivers would beat any other driver in equal machinery thats not also in Tier 1 over a season. thats how I rate my Tier 1 guys.
Piastri just doesnt have the X factor, he is always behind Lando.

That’s the thing, Alonso doesn’t have elite pure pace in qualifying. That’s never been his strong suit, even in his prime. He was not the qualifier Hamilton or Vettel was.

I don’t think he’s any quicker on one lap than Hulk or Sainz right now. Might be slower in fact. Sainz is something like 0.03% behind Leclerc in qualifying this season. Don’t see how he can be Tier 3 in qualifying speed given the criteria.

We’re way off-topic but free to discuss in another thread. I’m just not seeing how you’re coming to this Piastri conclusion.

[Darth-Piekus]

Oscar will definately become better and I am sure he will improve his speed pace.

[Big Gun]

Piastri has a ton of room to grow. I see no reason why his "stocks have fallen". He's no worse than Lando, Leclerc, or Russell in their second years.

Current Alonso is not Tier 2 IMO. I'd argue that Russell and Hamilton's inconsistency this year might put them out of Tier 2 as well. Some of that is the car but they haven't been their best. Lando and Leclerc are however.

Im talking pure pace. IMO Alonso is way more consistent than Hamilton and Russell, also imo Alonso would be a lot closer to Max in the championship than Lando, plus in this last race Alonso's racecraft is second to none and im sure he would of found a way past Max, or would of gotten Max a penalty.

I should clarify, that my ranking was more on Qualy Pace as for overall I have Max,Lando,Lecerc, Hamilton and Alonso still in tier 1.

Tier 1 drivers would beat any other driver in equal machinery thats not also in Tier 1 over a season. thats how I rate my Tier 1 guys.
Piastri just doesnt have the X factor, he is always behind Lando.

That’s the thing, Alonso doesn’t have elite pure pace in qualifying. That’s never been his strong suit, even in his prime. He was not the qualifier Hamilton or Vettel was.

I don’t think he’s any quicker on one lap than Hulk or Sainz right now. Might be slower in fact. Sainz is something like 0.03% behind Leclerc in qualifying this season. Don’t see how he can be Tier 3 in qualifying speed given the criteria.

We’re way off-topic but free to discuss in another thread. I’m just not seeing how you’re coming to this Piastri conclusion.

Well Fuel adjusted in 2007 he was faster than Hamilton (Had to qualify with race fuel and he always had a lap or 2 extra fuel onboard than Hamilton, plus the team was against him)...... Apart from Max he probably has the best % of outqualifying Teamates overall. Im pretty sure he would hold his own against Hulk or Sainz in Qualy. Race pace he's in a different area code.

Back on topic, Lando lacks the cunning of a Alonso and Max. Though he does have raw pace plus excellent race pace, where as Piastri lacks his raw pace and struggles with race pace. Thinking about it Piastri is a good number 2 driver

[FittingMechanics]

I think he was fully ahead though, all of his car was in front of Verstappen's before the braking zone. Feel free to correct me, but this is my view and what I can see. So it is an interesting one. Totally fine with how they looked at it, but I feel like the idea of what completes an overtake is part of the grey area, I'd dearly love for someone to show me where this is defined. If it isn't defined then I have to say, I would be very baffled to understand a sport that values overtaking as much as anything else, but hasn't defined what an overtake is and what the rules are that define an overtake.

To be fair, I didn't look at the positions before the straight and I was basing it on memory. From looking at the footage it does look like Norris had almost cleared Verstappen fully or even cleared him.

You are making a very valid point. If Norris is fully ahead, is he now a defender because he passed on the straight? If not why not?

I think that we can't really find a black and white rule for that as it is always under intepretation. One could say that Verstappen took a inside line which was slower over the straight but better for the corner, so he didn't really completely lose the position (as proved).


The simplest solution to that is to remove the difference between treatment of the attacking and defending drivers. If in both situations, inside line, outside line, ahead at apex or behind you have to leave the space, all of this is unimportant (when overtake is complete). The rule is super clear, if there is overlap you must leave the space. We will get better overtaking.

They made massive aero changes (and will do so again) but are unwilling to change the rule that would allow more side by side action? Who is leading this sport.

[Ben1980]

I would say to leave Oscar alone. He is in just his second year and he will learn.

Brundle has always said that after 3 years, that thats basically the drivers level.
So next year he gunna need to find 2 tenths to push Norris

You guys remember when Norris took a beating from Sainz the first two years? I wouldn't be concerned about Piastri when he has performed at this level against a prime Norris. I still expect Piastri to give Norris a hard time next year because he has more balls than Norris when it comes down to wheel-to-wheel fighting and race starts. Like you said, Piastri is lacking raw speed compare to Norris.

Took a beating seems to be a strong term, especially in 2020.

When it was 8 points and 1 qualifying result in it. Though the only podium went to Lando.

In a battle with soneone going to Ferrari and with a lot more experience I think Lando really stood out that year.