2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[Jurgen von Diaz]

I would say to leave Oscar alone. He is in just his second year and he will learn.

Brundle has always said that after 3 years, that thats basically the drivers level.
So next year he gunna need to find 2 tenths to push Norris

You guys remember when Norris took a beating from Sainz the first two years? I wouldn't be concerned about Piastri when he has performed at this level against a prime Norris. I still expect Piastri to give Norris a hard time next year because he has more balls than Norris when it comes down to wheel-to-wheel fighting and race starts. Like you said, Piastri is lacking raw speed compare to Norris.

[mwillems]

I guess there is the question of who is defending. Lando was actually ahead before the braking zone, if not by much. When is an overtake complete and was Max defending or actually attacking by going late on the brakes?

The rules around the apex are cut and dry and from that perspective, if Lando is the attacker then it has been applied correctly. But I am curious as to what "completes" an overtake, having a complete car length ahead before a braking zone itself does seem like it should be sufficient. I think that if there is a rule clarification, this is perhaps where it could be in part.

Interestingly, I remember asking this question before, of what completes an overtake... time to do some forum searching, when and why has this come up previously...?

To me the overtake is not complete unless the attacking car is fully ahead (no overlap and probably out of the corner). Or to make it simpler, if the driver started the straight ahead (especially fully ahead) of the other driver, he is the defending driver until the other overtakes fully without overlap. Just because Ricciardo licks the stamp and sends it doesn't make him a defender at the moment he gets ahead of the defender. To me this seems like common sense.

But to make things simpler, they should remove the whole who is a defender thing. It should be a simple rule - you have to leave a space if there is an overlap. Regardless if you are defender or the attacker. I could accept need for some kind of "overlap percentage" but to me this seems like it will just make things that much messier, drivers will probably claim they were over/under the percentage and then the stewards will have to go and measure this. Just a mess. With "always leave a space when overlap" it is simple and the driver who is being forced wide can always just hold his line and the crash will be the fault of the other driver. It doesn't make sense to have different rules depending on who is the defender. Attacker has to leave the space, defender doesn't, it's just complicated.

Go with the simple solution (always leave a space), it will lead to better racing, more overtakes and action which is all positive.

I think he was fully ahead though, all of his car was in front of Verstappen's before the braking zone. Feel free to correct me, but this is my view and what I can see. So it is an interesting one. Totally fine with how they looked at it, but I feel like the idea of what completes an overtake is part of the grey area, I'd dearly love for someone to show me where this is defined. If it isn't defined then I have to say, I would be very baffled to understand a sport that values overtaking as much as anything else, but hasn't defined what an overtake is and what the rules are that define an overtake.

[JPower]

Imo opinion watching it I knew Lando was gunna get a penalty because of how the stewarts ruled earlier incidents.
After been pushed wide Lando should of let Max pass out ahead of that corner and by the rules Max would of got the Penalty.

Think Alonso would of backed off so Max got the penalty, but Lando doesnt have that cunning yet of a Alonso or Max.

off topic, Piastri stocks have fallen imo. Lando is just faster in everyway.

1) Max, Lando, Lecerc
2) Hamilton, Alonso, Russel.
3) Sainz, Piastri, Hulk.

Piastri isnt in the top 6 of best drivers of this moment, just lacks about 2 tenths.

Piastri has a ton of room to grow. I see no reason why his "stocks have fallen". He's no worse than Lando, Leclerc, or Russell in their second years.

Current Alonso is not Tier 2 IMO. I'd argue that Russell and Hamilton's inconsistency this year might put them out of Tier 2 as well. Some of that is the car but they haven't been their best. Lando and Leclerc are however.

Im talking pure pace. IMO Alonso is way more consistent than Hamilton and Russell, also imo Alonso would be a lot closer to Max in the championship than Lando, plus in this last race Alonso's racecraft is second to none and im sure he would of found a way past Max, or would of gotten Max a penalty.

I should clarify, that my ranking was more on Qualy Pace as for overall I have Max,Lando,Lecerc, Hamilton and Alonso still in tier 1.

Tier 1 drivers would beat any other driver in equal machinery thats not also in Tier 1 over a season. thats how I rate my Tier 1 guys.
Piastri just doesnt have the X factor, he is always behind Lando.

That’s the thing, Alonso doesn’t have elite pure pace in qualifying. That’s never been his strong suit, even in his prime. He was not the qualifier Hamilton or Vettel was.

I don’t think he’s any quicker on one lap than Hulk or Sainz right now. Might be slower in fact. Sainz is something like 0.03% behind Leclerc in qualifying this season. Don’t see how he can be Tier 3 in qualifying speed given the criteria.

We’re way off-topic but free to discuss in another thread. I’m just not seeing how you’re coming to this Piastri conclusion.

[Darth-Piekus]

Oscar will definately become better and I am sure he will improve his speed pace.

[Big Gun]

Piastri has a ton of room to grow. I see no reason why his "stocks have fallen". He's no worse than Lando, Leclerc, or Russell in their second years.

Current Alonso is not Tier 2 IMO. I'd argue that Russell and Hamilton's inconsistency this year might put them out of Tier 2 as well. Some of that is the car but they haven't been their best. Lando and Leclerc are however.

Im talking pure pace. IMO Alonso is way more consistent than Hamilton and Russell, also imo Alonso would be a lot closer to Max in the championship than Lando, plus in this last race Alonso's racecraft is second to none and im sure he would of found a way past Max, or would of gotten Max a penalty.

I should clarify, that my ranking was more on Qualy Pace as for overall I have Max,Lando,Lecerc, Hamilton and Alonso still in tier 1.

Tier 1 drivers would beat any other driver in equal machinery thats not also in Tier 1 over a season. thats how I rate my Tier 1 guys.
Piastri just doesnt have the X factor, he is always behind Lando.

That’s the thing, Alonso doesn’t have elite pure pace in qualifying. That’s never been his strong suit, even in his prime. He was not the qualifier Hamilton or Vettel was.

I don’t think he’s any quicker on one lap than Hulk or Sainz right now. Might be slower in fact. Sainz is something like 0.03% behind Leclerc in qualifying this season. Don’t see how he can be Tier 3 in qualifying speed given the criteria.

We’re way off-topic but free to discuss in another thread. I’m just not seeing how you’re coming to this Piastri conclusion.

Well Fuel adjusted in 2007 he was faster than Hamilton (Had to qualify with race fuel and he always had a lap or 2 extra fuel onboard than Hamilton, plus the team was against him)...... Apart from Max he probably has the best % of outqualifying Teamates overall. Im pretty sure he would hold his own against Hulk or Sainz in Qualy. Race pace he's in a different area code.

Back on topic, Lando lacks the cunning of a Alonso and Max. Though he does have raw pace plus excellent race pace, where as Piastri lacks his raw pace and struggles with race pace. Thinking about it Piastri is a good number 2 driver

[FittingMechanics]

I think he was fully ahead though, all of his car was in front of Verstappen's before the braking zone. Feel free to correct me, but this is my view and what I can see. So it is an interesting one. Totally fine with how they looked at it, but I feel like the idea of what completes an overtake is part of the grey area, I'd dearly love for someone to show me where this is defined. If it isn't defined then I have to say, I would be very baffled to understand a sport that values overtaking as much as anything else, but hasn't defined what an overtake is and what the rules are that define an overtake.

To be fair, I didn't look at the positions before the straight and I was basing it on memory. From looking at the footage it does look like Norris had almost cleared Verstappen fully or even cleared him.

You are making a very valid point. If Norris is fully ahead, is he now a defender because he passed on the straight? If not why not?

I think that we can't really find a black and white rule for that as it is always under intepretation. One could say that Verstappen took a inside line which was slower over the straight but better for the corner, so he didn't really completely lose the position (as proved).


The simplest solution to that is to remove the difference between treatment of the attacking and defending drivers. If in both situations, inside line, outside line, ahead at apex or behind you have to leave the space, all of this is unimportant (when overtake is complete). The rule is super clear, if there is overlap you must leave the space. We will get better overtaking.

They made massive aero changes (and will do so again) but are unwilling to change the rule that would allow more side by side action? Who is leading this sport.

[Ben1980]

I would say to leave Oscar alone. He is in just his second year and he will learn.

Brundle has always said that after 3 years, that thats basically the drivers level.
So next year he gunna need to find 2 tenths to push Norris

You guys remember when Norris took a beating from Sainz the first two years? I wouldn't be concerned about Piastri when he has performed at this level against a prime Norris. I still expect Piastri to give Norris a hard time next year because he has more balls than Norris when it comes down to wheel-to-wheel fighting and race starts. Like you said, Piastri is lacking raw speed compare to Norris.

Took a beating seems to be a strong term, especially in 2020.

When it was 8 points and 1 qualifying result in it. Though the only podium went to Lando.

In a battle with soneone going to Ferrari and with a lot more experience I think Lando really stood out that year.

[basti313]

Oscar will definately become better

Well Fuel adjusted in 2007

Wow, that is top notch Yin Yang.

If Norris is fully ahead, is he now a defender because he passed on the straight? If not why not?

What a Twister. Max is overtaking Lando to give it the right plot. Love it

[Darth-Piekus]

One thing I dont understand is why is it totally okay to divebomb in defense and sent both participants off the track just to keep your position at all costs? By what moral does this considered fair driving that is not punishable?

If for example there is a new driver that drives exactly like Max Verstappen and he is on Mclaren. Then that driver decides to defend as many times as he wants abusing the rule against Max Verstappen will people have the same energy to call it fair racing just like they are calling it now or will they demand that driver's head on a platter? Because have in mind that eventually there will be a time when Max will be on the receiving end of his driving by a similar driver in the future.

[Ben1980]

I think he was fully ahead though, all of his car was in front of Verstappen's before the braking zone. Feel free to correct me, but this is my view and what I can see. So it is an interesting one. Totally fine with how they looked at it, but I feel like the idea of what completes an overtake is part of the grey area, I'd dearly love for someone to show me where this is defined. If it isn't defined then I have to say, I would be very baffled to understand a sport that values overtaking as much as anything else, but hasn't defined what an overtake is and what the rules are that define an overtake.

To be fair, I didn't look at the positions before the straight and I was basing it on memory. From looking at the footage it does look like Norris had almost cleared Verstappen fully or even cleared him.

You are making a very valid point. If Norris is fully ahead, is he now a defender because he passed on the straight? If not why not?

I think that we can't really find a black and white rule for that as it is always under intepretation. One could say that Verstappen took a inside line which was slower over the straight but better for the corner, so he didn't really completely lose the position (as proved).


The simplest solution to that is to remove the difference between treatment of the attacking and defending drivers. If in both situations, inside line, outside line, ahead at apex or behind you have to leave the space, all of this is unimportant (when overtake is complete). The rule is super clear, if there is overlap you must leave the space. We will get better overtaking.

They made massive aero changes (and will do so again) but are unwilling to change the rule that would allow more side by side action? Who is leading this sport.

He was 100% ahead, but people say he hadn't completed it. Which is irrelevant surely?

If you are mm ahead at the apex it seems to be the be all and end all, but if ahead before the corner it seems irrelevant.

If you are ahead by 1mm at the finish line you are ahead.

But, the rules seem muddled, at best.

It's an awful corner though.

[mwillems]

I think he was fully ahead though, all of his car was in front of Verstappen's before the braking zone. Feel free to correct me, but this is my view and what I can see. So it is an interesting one. Totally fine with how they looked at it, but I feel like the idea of what completes an overtake is part of the grey area, I'd dearly love for someone to show me where this is defined. If it isn't defined then I have to say, I would be very baffled to understand a sport that values overtaking as much as anything else, but hasn't defined what an overtake is and what the rules are that define an overtake.

To be fair, I didn't look at the positions before the straight and I was basing it on memory. From looking at the footage it does look like Norris had almost cleared Verstappen fully or even cleared him.

You are making a very valid point. If Norris is fully ahead, is he now a defender because he passed on the straight? If not why not?

I think that we can't really find a black and white rule for that as it is always under intepretation. One could say that Verstappen took a inside line which was slower over the straight but better for the corner, so he didn't really completely lose the position (as proved).


The simplest solution to that is to remove the difference between treatment of the attacking and defending drivers. If in both situations, inside line, outside line, ahead at apex or behind you have to leave the space, all of this is unimportant (when overtake is complete). The rule is super clear, if there is overlap you must leave the space. We will get better overtaking.

They made massive aero changes (and will do so again) but are unwilling to change the rule that would allow more side by side action? Who is leading this sport.

The point of the need for certain types of overlap though, are based on the prevention of divebombing and other manoeuvres with the potential to cause incidents. You can't be expected to make space at the very last second if someone is crazy with their brakes. And the other consideration is the ability for the stewards to make an accurate judgement.

I think that cameras on the nose and at the rear to demonstrate the position of any car either side of another car, plus braking telemetry. Or easier than that, cameras directly above all the braking zones who's timings are linked to the telemetry would fulfil the desire to see who is attacking or who is defending.

In this instance, I do think Norris was slightly ahead, but it is very close and the call is tight. But that is why I wonder what constitutes an overtake. Last year Hamilton was penalised at Singapore for using run off on the second corner after he'd overtaken Norris AND had hit the apex on the first corner after overtaking Norris. So if that isn't classed as a complete overtake and he is still gaining a place by going off track, then this certainly was.

As I say, this idea of what completes an overtake is something I'd love to understand more about.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

Brundle has always said that after 3 years, that thats basically the drivers level.
So next year he gunna need to find 2 tenths to push Norris

You guys remember when Norris took a beating from Sainz the first two years? I wouldn't be concerned about Piastri when he has performed at this level against a prime Norris. I still expect Piastri to give Norris a hard time next year because he has more balls than Norris when it comes down to wheel-to-wheel fighting and race starts. Like you said, Piastri is lacking raw speed compare to Norris.

Took a beating seems to be a strong term, especially in 2020.

When it was 8 points and 1 qualifying result in it. Though the only podium went to Lando.

In a battle with soneone going to Ferrari and with a lot more experience I think Lando really stood out that year.

Well, with Hamilton leaving for Ferrari, should we assume that he will destroy Russell? I think it's the other way around.

The point is that I wouldn't be worried about Piastri if Norris had a hard time with Sainz, who has never been in the #1 category. Piastri has a championship contender as his teammate, so it's okay not to be ahead yet.

[Ben1980]

You guys remember when Norris took a beating from Sainz the first two years? I wouldn't be concerned about Piastri when he has performed at this level against a prime Norris. I still expect Piastri to give Norris a hard time next year because he has more balls than Norris when it comes down to wheel-to-wheel fighting and race starts. Like you said, Piastri is lacking raw speed compare to Norris.

Took a beating seems to be a strong term, especially in 2020.

When it was 8 points and 1 qualifying result in it. Though the only podium went to Lando.

In a battle with soneone going to Ferrari and with a lot more experience I think Lando really stood out that year.

Well, with Hamilton leaving for Ferrari, should we assume that he will destroy Russell? I think it's the other way around.

The point is that I wouldn't be worried about Piastri if Norris had a hard time with Sainz, who has never been in the #1 category. Piastri has a championship contender as his teammate, so it's okay not to be ahead yet.

I'm not sure anyone is worried about piastri. But Norris didn't have a hard time with Sainz.

Though Norris was 19 when he started out.

But, personally, I don't think Piastri will usurp Lando, and will likely move in first.

[GrizzleBoy]

Lando has shown more aggression to Lewis Hamilton for complimenting him and his teams pace than he has shown Max all year.

Lando defended harder against Lewis in 2021 than he has against Msx all year (might be some hyperbole in there).

Its just weird, but i guess thats what it looks like when your name is Lando Norris and youre suddenly fighting against who youbthought was your bestie.

[proteus]

Lando has shown more aggression to Lewis Hamilton for complimenting him and his teams pace than he has shown Max all year.

Lando defended harder against Lewis in 2021 than he has against Msx all year (might be some hyperbole in there).

Its just weird, but i guess thats what it looks like when your name is Lando Norris and youre suddenly fighting against who youbthought was your bestie.

There is much more at stake here. Mclaren is a title contender first time since 2012, and they made it clear it is a no. 1 priority at the moment. So crashing with Max at every other race is a no-go, especially since Ferrari is very close.