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How is it possible that Max was almost slower than the Mercedes?
Can someone provide an explanation how is it possible to lose so much relative performance within a season? I've never seen this happening before outside some insane cases like Brawn GP 2009 because they ran out of money
When your upgrades don't work, you are yesterday's news. It's that simple. Red Bull's "dominance" was only 1 upgrade away from being eroded. That is how precarious sitting at the top of Formula 1 is.
Last edited by AR3-GP on 28 Oct 2024, 02:04, edited 1 time in total.
How is it possible that Max was almost slower than the Mercedes?
Can someone provide an explanation how is it possible to lose so much relative performance within a season? I've never seen this happening before outside some insane cases like Brawn GP 2009 because they ran out of money
Wrong development path combined with other teams finding more performance. The RB20 at the start of the year was hiding cracks due to rivals not improving loads, until they did and then it was harder to find anything with upgrades for red bull as they were exposing more weaknesses. If you bring the rb20 of Bahrain today it would look a lot worse than what we have now
Christian Horner comes swinging with the telemetry
He has said Lando Norris entered T4 15km/h faster during his battle with Max Verstappen versus his quickest lap, and claims that Norris "wouldn't have made the corner"
I agree all of these. I even anticipated something like this for the end of the season around summer time.
What is even more worrying that Red Bull don't give any vibes suggesting that they know what is going on and will be able to come back strong for next season. And then the questionable engine comes into picture for 2026.
At this point there is no sign of positive turnaround at the horizont.
I also think 2025 is going to have issues. 2025 is not a time for fundamental architectural changes. Like we saw from 2020 to 2021, it's only a matter of limited evolution because you need to spend more time on the 2026 cars.
Mclaren and Ferrari are the favorites for 2025. They have a great base car to continue developing. They will evolve their cars like RB18-> RB19. Red Bull's original RB18 concept has been obsoleted. They benefitted from having a car which could be developed to its ceiling the quickest. Mclaren and Ferrari have adapted fundamentally different approaches to generating performance and it took them longer, but their ceiling is higher than that of the original Red Bull concept. They don't rely on infinite stiffness and high speed corners to win a GP. It's a huge effort for Red Bull to change course and they can't afford to do all of that while staying on top of 2026 development.
The two main things they need to work on is the ride and the management. We’ve been fast enough in the past to ignore our hatred of Curbs but now they really need to get on top of it
How is it possible that Max was almost slower than the Mercedes?
Can someone provide an explanation how is it possible to lose so much relative performance within a season? I've never seen this happening before outside some insane cases like Brawn GP 2009 because they ran out of money
With a bad setup, if you have an understeery or oversteery car, you will destroy the tires. Verstappen didn't even have a proper FP1 or FP2 session, so that's probably the reason. It's similar to Norris, who had a bad setup in the Austin Sprint and killed the tires in just 10 laps.
The two main things they need to work on is the ride and the management. We’ve been fast enough in the past to ignore our hatred of Curbs but now they really need to get on top of it
I just don't see how you can change the car that much fundamentally in 1 winter where you need to keep another eye and budget towards 2026.
Red Bull's stiffness "issue" is tied to their entire aero concept and the cooling. To invent a new car that is a street circuit curb riding monster that still works on every other track (like Ferrari or Mclaren), requires a new aero concept. This is something that Mclaren and Ferrari have spent the better part of 2 years developing and mastering. Red Bull will not be able to "reproduce" a different concept in the matter of 6 months. Heading into 2025, they probably will not be able to change the monocoque or cooling because it doesn't make sense to do so to get 1 year out of it.
Marko is claiming max used a very old PU for Mexico GP. The excuses are getting lamer by the race
Honestly turned out of Marko long ago.
All teams to it, Horner, Brown, Stella, Toto its tiring I think Marko - and maybe Brown - take it to a whole other level at times. I don't take a think he says seriously.
Marko changed a lot over the past year. Before he would downplay everything. Now he pushes copium and excuses to make it seem like Red Bull are not as bad as it seems. The one problem is that this only works on people who don't watch the races. I'm laughing at the suggestion that the PU is the issue here. The Honda doesn't have the degradation that Marko speaks of. That was something Honda is very proud of. If you add this phantom 5kph, Verstappen would have reached 353 km/h top speed in qualy. That's 3 km/h clear of any other car. Not realistic.
Last edited by AR3-GP on 28 Oct 2024, 02:53, edited 1 time in total.
It's all about wind tunnel time. McLaren and Ferrari are now strong because they were only 4th and 3rd in 2023. Interestingly, Red Bull and Mercedes have fallen back in performance. Once Red Bull can use more wind tunnel time again, they can fix their aero issues and build a competitive car once more. Wind tunnel time directly affects aerodynamics, which is a major factor in overall car performance. More testing helps improve the correlation between the wind tunnel and CFD, leading to a better understanding of real-world performance. Additional wind tunnel time accelerates the pace of updates, allowing these teams to introduce new components more often and stay competitive throughout the season—just as we saw with McLaren and Ferrari.
It's all about wind tunnel time. McLaren and Ferrari are now strong because they were only 4th and 3rd in 2023. Interestingly, Red Bull and Mercedes have fallen back in performance. Once Red Bull can use more wind tunnel time again, they can fix their aero issues and build a competitive car once more. Wind tunnel time directly affects aerodynamics, which is a major factor in overall car performance. More testing helps improve the correlation between the wind tunnel and CFD, leading to a better understanding of real-world performance. Additional wind tunnel time accelerates the pace of updates, allowing these teams to introduce new components more often and stay competitive throughout the season—just as we saw with McLaren and Ferrari.
Yes but they aren't going to be using that extra time on the 2025 car. It has to go to 2026. That's the logical thing to do.
The RBR engineers will be left scratching their heads. An update package that was supposed to give them stability and performance is still a bit too temperamental. More work to be done in MK it seems.
The RBR engineers will be left scratching their heads. An update package that was supposed to give them stability and performance is still a bit too temperamental. More work to be done in MK it seems.
Which worries you a lot for the 2025 car. That they still don't have a very good handle on he problems. Max is out driving the car still it seems.
