2024 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 25 - 27

[Shrieker]

Perez has lost his head over lawson totally rattled

I think the way he has come to Formula 1, I don't think he has the right attitude for it. He needs to be a bit more humble."

"When a two-time world champion was saying things last weekend, he completely ignored him. It's like when you come to Formula 1, you're obviously very hungry and so on, but you have to be respectful as well, off track and on track.

"I don't think he's showing the right attitude. I think he's a great driver and I hope for him that he can step back and learn from it.

"In his first two grands prix he has had many incidents. I think there will be a point where it can cost him too much, like it did this weekend.

"I just think that he has to have the right attitude to say: 'Look, probably I'm overdoing it a little bit, I will step back and start again'. Because if you don't learn from your mistakes, Formula 1 is a brutal world and he might not continue."

Reminds me of where is Palmer Same level of energy certainly.

[dialtone]

Stewards have gone even harder on Max, adding penalty points

This lesson was long due for Max. He was getting dirtier by every race to push out his competitor. Fully deserved penalties, all of them. Hopefully he would learn something out of this.

Lol no. Once they change the rules he’s done. This is how he races, it’s not a lesson to learn, dive bombing his whole career.

[PlatinumZealot]

Ferrari helping Max secure the title. Was not expecting to say that. Can't say that I am sad. Second Ferrari win in 7 days! Championship is within sight! It would be a big blow for McLaren if they do not win either championship.

Was there even a title fight?

We saw how Lando leaves the door wide open for Max again today! If lando had covered the inside after that first overtake, Max wouldn't even be in the position to punt him off, and it would likely have been a win. Poor race craft from Lando again and again.

[purestpurist]

Stewards have gone even harder on Max, adding penalty points

This lesson was long due for Max. He was getting dirtier by every race to push out his competitor. Fully deserved penalties, all of them. Hopefully he would learn something out of this.

Without the incidents he likely would've finished fourth and Lando would've won, so he actually gained a point by taking the penalties instead of conceding the position.

[Dunlay]

Stewards have gone even harder on Max, adding penalty points

This lesson was long due for Max. He was getting dirtier by every race to push out his competitor. Fully deserved penalties, all of them. Hopefully he would learn something out of this.

Without the incidents he likely would've finished fourth and Lando would've won, so he actually gained a point by taking the penalties instead of conceding the position.

Norris wouldn't have beaten Sainz as he had a far better car underneath him than Charles. For most part, Sainz was just managing his race. So we don't know his real pace.

[FittingMechanics]

2nd incident deserved at least 10s penalty. Max ran Norris off the road almost into the wall because Norris had dared to fight max hard. 2nd incident is a high speed corner and max basically tried to send it into the side of Norris at 150+ km/h deliberately. Gotta put your foot down as the stewards on that.

First incident is a 50/50. Pretty sure we saw similar cases in the same GP (Perez/stroll) not get penalised. It seems harsh to give 10s for that especially since Norris gained the place from that exchange and kept it until the t8 incident (did Norris not leave the track at T4 and gain an advantage here?)

2nd incident fully agreed.

1st incident - I was surprised they handed out the penalty to be honest, I think it was quite possible that stewards could say Norris was not sufficiently ahead so he can't keep the position. Their view was probably that Norris was already ahead (at apex) so he didn't gain an advantage by going off. Quite silly to base this only on apex but it sure looks that way.

Norris didn't have a realistic chance to give the spot back, it was just couple of corners. Can't penalize a guy for not giving the position back in 5 seconds. I wonder what would have happened if VER didn't make the T8 attack. Red Bull could have complained Norris was ahead only because he went over the grass. Much harder thing to judge.

[Ben1980]

The first incident was similar to Austin, get ahead at the apex. Max was ahead last time, Lando this time. He was not given space and pushed off. The penalty was fair, and Lando was never giving the place back, amd didn't have to.

If Max gives the place back after the next incident, he doesn't get a penalty though.

[FittingMechanics]

The first incident was similar to Austin, get ahead at the apex. Max was ahead last time, Lando this time. He was not given space and pushed off. The penalty was fair, and Lando was never giving the place back, amd didn't have to.

If Max gives the place back after the next incident, he doesn't get a penalty though.

First incident just shows how stupid these rules are. You can't have centimeters (who is ahead at apex) determine whether attacker gets a 10 second penalty or defender gets a 5 second penalty. It is just stupid to turn the race and overtake in a game of chance. The rules need to be changed, no looking at who is ahead at apex but you have to leave space for the other car to stay on track.

Second incident caused Norris to lose a position against Leclerc. I am not sure you can let that slide even if Verstappen gives back the spot. The damage was done. Without Leclerc getting ahead and Verstappen let him back through, that would probably be forgiven but not with Leclerc getting ahead.

[DChemTech]

2nd incident deserved at least 10s penalty. Max ran Norris off the road almost into the wall because Norris had dared to fight max hard. 2nd incident is a high speed corner and max basically tried to send it into the side of Norris at 150+ km/h deliberately. Gotta put your foot down as the stewards on that.

First incident is a 50/50. Pretty sure we saw similar cases in the same GP (Perez/stroll) not get penalised. It seems harsh to give 10s for that especially since Norris gained the place from that exchange and kept it until the t8 incident (did Norris not leave the track at T4 and gain an advantage here?)

2nd incident fully agreed.

1st incident - I was surprised they handed out the penalty to be honest, I think it was quite possible that stewards could say Norris was not sufficiently ahead so he can't keep the position. Their view was probably that Norris was already ahead (at apex) so he didn't gain an advantage by going off. Quite silly to base this only on apex but it sure looks that way.

Norris didn't have a realistic chance to give the spot back, it was just couple of corners. Can't penalize a guy for not giving the position back in 5 seconds. I wonder what would have happened if VER didn't make the T8 attack. Red Bull could have complained Norris was ahead only because he went over the grass. Much harder thing to judge.

Penalizing both incidents was a bit harsh. But to be honest, it's fine for me. Hope it teaches a lesson. And I say this as someone that wants to see Max win the championship.

[basti313]

The first incident was similar to Austin, get ahead at the apex. Max was ahead last time, Lando this time. He was not given space and pushed off. The penalty was fair, and Lando was never giving the place back, amd didn't have to.

If Max gives the place back after the next incident, he doesn't get a penalty though.

First incident just shows how stupid these rules are. You can't have centimeters (who is ahead at apex) determine whether attacker gets a 10 second penalty or defender gets a 5 second penalty. It is just stupid to turn the race and overtake in a game of chance. The rules need to be changed, no looking at who is ahead at apex but you have to leave space for the other car to stay on track.

Second incident caused Norris to lose a position against Leclerc. I am not sure you can let that slide even if Verstappen gives back the spot. The damage was done. Without Leclerc getting ahead and Verstappen let him back through, that would probably be forgiven but not with Leclerc getting ahead.

Agreed on the first one.
I wonder why everyone speaks of "the rules need to be changed"? It is not the rules, it is a code of conduct, which anyways changes next year and is not even manifested in the rules this year. They could change this every race, for every corner.
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-drivers-co ... mpionships

For the second one: I think this was a clear execution error by RedBull and Verstappen. Give the place back and avoid the pen...would have resulted in a much better end. Give the place back at the entrance of the stadium....and win it back by DRS would have made the discission for the stewards impossible. One of the rare execution errors on their side, let us mark this in the topic of WDC when it is +-1 point.

That Lando lost the place to Charles was irrelevant, that did not play a role here in the pen as stated...as Max was not entitled to leave space. It was just a huge divebomb, trying to make use of the dirty tires after the grass. 10sec is a lot...but...why not. Much better than the usual 5sec that does not play a role afterwards. They just should keep it consistent now.

[Gillian]

2nd incident deserved at least 10s penalty. Max ran Norris off the road almost into the wall because Norris had dared to fight max hard. 2nd incident is a high speed corner and max basically tried to send it into the side of Norris at 150+ km/h deliberately. Gotta put your foot down as the stewards on that.

First incident is a 50/50. Pretty sure we saw similar cases in the same GP (Perez/stroll) not get penalised. It seems harsh to give 10s for that especially since Norris gained the place from that exchange and kept it until the t8 incident (did Norris not leave the track at T4 and gain an advantage here?)

2nd incident fully agreed.

1st incident - I was surprised they handed out the penalty to be honest, I think it was quite possible that stewards could say Norris was not sufficiently ahead so he can't keep the position. Their view was probably that Norris was already ahead (at apex) so he didn't gain an advantage by going off. Quite silly to base this only on apex but it sure looks that way.

Norris didn't have a realistic chance to give the spot back, it was just couple of corners. Can't penalize a guy for not giving the position back in 5 seconds. I wonder what would have happened if VER didn't make the T8 attack. Red Bull could have complained Norris was ahead only because he went over the grass. Much harder thing to judge.

Penalizing both incidents was a bit harsh. But to be honest, it's fine for me. Hope it teaches a lesson. And I say this as someone that wants to see Max win the championship.

What lesson though? It has already been said but Verstappen likely prevented a Norris' win and better than a P6 was very unlikely. It is who he is, this will not change. Just listen to his post race interviews. He is directly connecting his overly agressive driving to the lack of pace of his RB.

Verstappen is not the red mist guy like Vettel, who just lost his mind from time to time during the race. He is Senna/Schumacher who has no problem taking out an opponent if it is worth the risk. It is calculated.

To me the turn 4 incident does not warrant a penalty and 10 second is extremely harsh. The turn 8 incident is just laughable and 10 seconds is fine. But Verstappen knew full well he would get a penalty for his driving, it was just worth it to him.

[FittingMechanics]

Agreed on the first one.
I wonder why everyone speaks of "the rules need to be changed"? It is not the rules, it is a code of conduct, which anyways changes next year and is not even manifested in the rules this year. They could change this every race, for every corner.
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-drivers-co ... mpionships

Semantics. It needs to be changed.

For the second one: I think this was a clear execution error by RedBull and Verstappen. Give the place back and avoid the pen...would have resulted in a much better end. Give the place back at the entrance of the stadium....and win it back by DRS would have made the discission for the stewards impossible. One of the rare execution errors on their side, let us mark this in the topic of WDC when it is +-1 point.

That Lando lost the place to Charles was irrelevant, that did not play a role here in the pen as stated...as Max was not entitled to leave space. It was just a huge divebomb, trying to make use of the dirty tires after the grass. 10sec is a lot...but...why not. Much better than the usual 5sec that does not play a role afterwards. They just should keep it consistent now.

Verstappen got 10s for pushing other driver off the track in the first incident. What happened in the second incident? He pushed Norris off track and he overtook off the track. While I am not convinced stewards would give the same penalty if he let Norris through, saying that pushing a driver off track shouldn't give you a penalty if you give him the position back is plain wrong. Norris lost his position against Leclerc because of Verstappen diving and pushing Norris off track.

Btw I think that they need to think about penalties being forced to serve them in a certain amount of laps. It doesn't need to be a stop&go where you can't service the car, but make them stop and serve it in 3 laps. If it screws up your strategy, so be it. These +5 or +10s penalties are just too weak to really make drivers stop doing it. In many cases the gaps quickly become so large that the penalties become inconsequential. For example Max got 10s penalty in Austria yet didn't lose a single position due to it.

[djones]

One that always stuck in my mind was when Max crashed into Hamilton at Monza a couple of years back on purpose as a DNF for them both benefited him.

Toto called it a professional foul. Max is a specialist at these. Which on one hand makes him a dirty cheat, but on the other hand it’s working for him and creating advantages so maybe he is just playing the game better than the others.

[basti313]

One that always stuck in my mind was when Max crashed into Hamilton at Monza a couple of years back on purpose as a DNF for them both benefited him.

Toto called it a professional foul. Max is a specialist at these. Which on one hand makes him a dirty cheat, but on the other hand it’s working for him and creating advantages so maybe he is just playing the game better than the others.

Well, the wording is a bit strange...back at the day it was not at all clear if Ham needs to leave the space or not. In this regard the (stupid) cm rule today is at least clear. Stewards just handed pen by their feelings, what was ok in that instance, of course.
So I feel a bit foul by Toto. The two crashed, because every one of the two wanted to make a point. Well deserved crash, I would have penalized both for being stupid.

But generally for the professional foul: It is a bit like football. If you are slower than your opponent, your hand on the jersey of your opponent can compensate a lot.
In this regard...what else should Max do, but race as hard as he can? Just wave Lando a nice goodbye when he passes? I am a bit surprised by the expectations...

Verstappen got 10s for pushing other driver off the track in the first incident. What happened in the second incident? He pushed Norris off track and he overtook off the track.

Did you read and understand the explanation by the stewards?

Btw I think that they need to think about penalties being forced to serve them in a certain amount of laps.

That was removed on purpose as going through the pits simply ruins the whole race for minor infractions.
In DTM they introduced a slow zone to do this, works really nice. Would also be good in F1. Just 10m at the inside at the beginning of a straight, where they need to go through with the pit limiter.

[FittingMechanics]

Did you read and understand the explanation by the stewards?

Yes. I am not talking about the stewards explanation. They say that Verstappen was ahead at apex and thus entitled to racing room (on the inside). Then he was not able to stay on track and thus gained a lasting advantage.

I am saying that the stewards ignored that Verstappen also forced Norris off in that corner. Even if Verstappen was ahead at apex (as an attacker) he is not allowed to force the other driver off the track. That much was clear in Austin where other drivers got the penalty when they dived on the inside when attacking.

To put it simply, in Austin defender who got to apex first on the inside was allowed to push the other driver off.
In Mexico VER was an attacker so not comparable.

That was removed on purpose as going through the pits simply ruins the whole race for minor infractions.
In DTM they introduced a slow zone to do this, works really nice. Would also be good in F1. Just 10m at the inside at the beginning of a straight, where they need to go through with the pit limiter.

Yes, I understand why they moved away from serving them in pits, but I am talking about severe big penalties. Here Max had two big penalties and if he had a car he usually had, he wouldn't have lost a point, just like in Austria. Penalties need to be severe enough for people to stop doing it. Getting +5s time penalty for being wide in 3-4 laps is fine, but getting +5 or +10 for shoving a driver off track, that should be more punitive. Another example VER fans like to bring up is Silverstone. Hamilton got just a 10s penalty which didn't really mean a thing.

DTM slow zone would be a much better solution than serving it at next pitstop or added to the end of race. It would mean penalty gets served immediately instead of potentially much later in the race. With how these cars like clean air and how hard it can be to overtake, it is not punitive enough to add them +5 or +10s over half a race, these cars can easily gain that advantage if they are in clean air.