2024 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 25 - 27

[Farnborough]

Another race where Red Bull was much slower in the race than qualifying.

2 races in a row.

Almost like something happened....

They were much slower in the race than qualifying before COTA. Do people still pay attention?

What's curious is the collapse of Mercedes since the summer break. From winning 3 out of 4 and brilliant race pace, to not even troubling the podium. That needs more scrutiny. The upgrade excuse is bogus. Mercedes found something and it looks like they've had it taken away by the regulators.

There appears some confusion about the effect here, in what was accused in potential to change.

Perhaps I'm wrong in my interpretation, but it LOOKED like the accusation was that the car could be run in lowered position during qualli for absolute pace optimisation, with the consideration of plank wear risk in the race effectively needing them to raise the chassis for the race.

Is that the view the other team (McL) were projecting ?

In effect, fastest during qualli, and SLOWER for race pace ..... this being the "fingerprint" that would prove the accusation.

Is that what others read into this ?

[AR3-GP]

In effect, fastest during qualli, and SLOWER for race pace ..... this being the "fingerprint" that would prove the accusation.

Red Bull losing pace compared to qualifying has been the case since Miami. Why would one reinvent the rest of the season to claim this only began after bib-gate?

[Farnborough]

In effect, fastest during qualli, and SLOWER for race pace ..... this being the "fingerprint" that would prove the accusation.

Red Bull losing pace compared to qualifying has been the case since Miami. Why would one reinvent the rest of the season to claim this only began after bib-gate?

I don't know, but think I'm unsure which way the sentiment is running in this thread about that topic.

I was questioning to understand, for myself, what was being said .... not making a statement.

[Quantum]

Another race where Red Bull was much slower in the race than qualifying.

2 races in a row.

Almost like something happened....

They were much slower in the race than qualifying before COTA. Do people still pay attention?

What's curious is the collapse of Mercedes since the summer break. From winning 3 out of 4 and brilliant race pace, to not even troubling the podium. That needs more scrutiny. The upgrade excuse is bogus. Mercedes found something and it looks like they've had it taken away by the regulators.

Are people paying attention? Yea lets see shall we.
4 races from the summer break....

Azerbaijan Started 6th finished 5th. +1
Singapore Started 2nd Finished 2nd. =
Monza Started 7th finished 6th. +1
Zandvoort started 2nd finished 2nd.=

Net +2

Since those races and the FIA intervening....

USGP Started 2nd and finished 3rd. -1
Mexico Started 2nd and finished 6th. -4 (And couldn't even catch a broken Mercedes.)

Net -5.

Now wonder there's deflection.

[Farnborough]

Wouldn't your second example be statistically unreliable enough .... from the 20 seconds added at pitstop ... to be representative ?

That is just jumping to a forgone conclusion and not basis for valid comparison.

[Quantum]

Wouldn't your second example be statistically unreliable enough .... from the 20 seconds added at pitstop ... to be representative ?

That is just jumping to a forgone conclusion and not basis for valid comparison.

Not at all.
His pace was slower than a broken Mercedes.
Came out 9 seconds behind and ended 11 seconds behind the 2nd Broken Merc.
Then was 16 seconds behind the lead Merc that was 5 second gap on lap 32(which was stuck behind the broken Merc for 30laps).
Hamilton was readily faster in clear air too.

Not enough?
Outqualified Lando and ended up 55 seconds behind him. Even accounting for the 20 seconds, Max still lost 35 seconds

This is not because of a 20 second penalty.

[Farnborough]

You're making a statement ... of their culpability .... based on position change, avoiding the cause of those positions lost from penalty in this last race while using two races to give that representation. It has no accuracy or validity toward the statement you're trying to make.

It's full of holes in reality.

[FittingMechanics]

VER had slower pace than a Haas. We will see what happens in next races.

If pace continues to be this bad then it was the bib.

[Quantum]

You're making a statement ... of their culpability .... based on position change, avoiding the cause of those positions lost from penalty in this last race while using two races to give that representation. It has no accuracy or validity toward the statement you're trying to make.

It's full of holes in reality.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I made no statement.

I presented the facts. As FittingMechanics rightly mentioned, Haas closed in on Red Bull in the 2nd stint.
That might not be to everyone's liking, and of course Red Bull fans will be concerned.
At least based on the facts presented, they should be right?

And a sample size of 2 is pertinent as we've only had 2 races to draw any data from since the FIA made their position clear. Again, portrayed with positions won and lost in the 4 races previous and the 2 races since.
Will this remain the case? Who knows, what I'm saying is a trend is developing.

[rbirules]

2 races in a row.

Almost like something happened....

They were much slower in the race than qualifying before COTA. Do people still pay attention?

What's curious is the collapse of Mercedes since the summer break. From winning 3 out of 4 and brilliant race pace, to not even troubling the podium. That needs more scrutiny. The upgrade excuse is bogus. Mercedes found something and it looks like they've had it taken away by the regulators.

Are people paying attention? Yea lets see shall we.
4 races from the summer break....

Azerbaijan Started 6th finished 5th. +1
Singapore Started 2nd Finished 2nd. =
Monza Started 7th finished 6th. +1
Zandvoort started 2nd finished 2nd.=

Net +2

Since those races and the FIA intervening....

USGP Started 2nd and finished 3rd. -1
Mexico Started 2nd and finished 6th. -4 (And couldn't even catch a broken Mercedes.)

Net -5.

Now wonder there's deflection.

-Azerbaijan Max started 6th, was running 7th until Checo and Sainz collided, net: -1
-Singapore it's very difficult to overtake and Max had two Mercedes as buffers between himself and Oscar, and even more between himself and the Ferraris, so the three cars that might be able to overtake him weren't able to get close.
-Monza I think George had an issue at the start that caused him to lose positions and pace. He caught back up and passed Checo and was gaining on Max at the end but couldn't quite catch him. Without that incident Max likely finishes 7th in Monza.
-Zandvoort, Piastri was passed at the start by Russell and couldn't pass him on track. This allowed a gap of around 7 seconds to be built by Max. He pretty much held that gap the rest of the race while he watched Lando sail off in the distance while Oscar battled George and Charles. Gap came down at the end, but Max was probably managing it.

So two tracks where McLaren/Lando had dominating pace Max happens to steal 2nd place in qualifying and others aren't in a position to overtake him, because of the Mercedes, primarily George being a cork in the bottle. The other two races had incidents that allowed Max to gain a position or two when he should have held position, at best, if not go backwards in the race.

[FittingMechanics]

-Azerbaijan Max started 6th, was running 7th until Checo and Sainz collided, net: -1
-Singapore it's very difficult to overtake and Max had two Mercedes as buffers between himself and Oscar, and even more between himself and the Ferraris, so the three cars that might be able to overtake him weren't able to get close.
-Monza I think George had an issue at the start that caused him to lose positions and pace. He caught back up and passed Checo and was gaining on Max at the end but couldn't quite catch him. Without that incident Max likely finishes 7th in Monza.
-Zandvoort, Piastri was passed at the start by Russell and couldn't pass him on track. This allowed a gap of around 7 seconds to be built by Max. He pretty much held that gap the rest of the race while he watched Lando sail off in the distance while Oscar battled George and Charles. Gap came down at the end, but Max was probably managing it.

So two tracks where McLaren/Lando had dominating pace Max happens to steal 2nd place in qualifying and others aren't in a position to overtake him, because of the Mercedes, primarily George being a cork in the bottle. The other two races had incidents that allowed Max to gain a position or two when he should have held position, at best, if not go backwards in the race.

In how many races did the Verstappen have worse pace than Haas?

[Seanspeed]

Ferrari have improved lately and have better race pace than qualifying pace, which has made Verstappen finishing at least as well as his start quite difficult. You cant just look at Wikipedia results with this stuff, you need full context.

The Red Bull looks pretty much in the same position it has for a while now. Some people are just a little too eager on the confirmation bias.

[Seanspeed]

In how many races did the Verstappen have worse pace than Haas?

Haas have made a big leap forward recently.

[FittingMechanics]

In how many races did the Verstappen have worse pace than Haas?

Haas have made a big leap forward recently.

They did. It will be impossible to be certain whether bib made them lose race pace but we can look what happens in the next 4 races. In Mexico Verstappen was unable to catch battling Mercedes drivers and couldn't pull a gap to Haas. He also lost about 0.6-0.7s per lap to the leading Ferrari in the first stint.

These are all datapoints. Maybe in Brazil Red Bull bounces back and we can forget about the bib thing. I think it's worth bringing it up though.

[basti313]

In how many races did the Verstappen have worse pace than Haas?

Haas have made a big leap forward recently.

They did. It will be impossible to be certain whether bib made them lose race pace but we can look what happens in the next 4 races. In Mexico Verstappen was unable to catch battling Mercedes drivers and couldn't pull a gap to Haas. He also lost about 0.6-0.7s per lap to the leading Ferrari in the first stint.

These are all datapoints. Maybe in Brazil Red Bull bounces back and we can forget about the bib thing. I think it's worth bringing it up though.

That is not datapoints, this is nonsense. It was clear, that he can not reach the Mercs and the only thread was behind with Piastri. He was just managing the tires and gap with an old engine.