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[FittingMechanics]

Vanja you are really destroying your credibility with these nonsensical arguments.

In T4 Norris and Verstappen touch wheels as Max drifts over the white line (ensuring Norris can't stay on track). It is utterly ridiculous to claim that Norris "opened up the steering" and "immediately turned right". He did so after they touched. Norris was pretty much full lock while Verstappen was the one who "opened up the steering" to drift to the white line.

Your T8 argument falls apart because Verstappen got the penalty for T8 because he gained an advantage off track, not because Norris was forced wide (even though he was).

[deargodhelpme]

Even Jos said T8 was too much from Max...

[FittingMechanics]

Btw Norris probably braked 50 meters earlier for T7 because his tires were still dirty from grass. The car definitely looks skittish on braking into T7.

[Emag]

Yeah the T8 thing was just crazy to be honest and there isn't any defense for it.

Of course Lando would brake earlier after going to the grass a second ago, but that doesn't mean Max should just overshot the corner completely for no reason by going to the inside of a corner you can't really overtake at unless the car in front has a big problem.

And Max braking at a similar place as usually, is also not an argument because the lines for the corner are completely different. If you are braking at distance x while being at the outer edge of the track at the entry, the braking distance wont be x again if you are so much more inwards at the entry. And at that corner, they are right on the edge of the track at the exit, so the braking is literally at the limit already even with an opened up entry.

Lando intentionally trying to make him go off also doesn't make sense. If that's what he wanted, he would not have gone off together with Max to let Charles through. Also, why would he do it in that corner? There's plenty of runoff and Max would have continued on in front of him. If you want to play Max for a fool you do it at a place where he loses out more than you.

[Vanja #66]

Vanja you are really destroying your credibility with these nonsensical arguments.

Mate, we're having a discussion. Everyone can have their own opinion and we are countering arguments. I'm just curious here, what makes you feel special by saying I'm destroying my credibility just because you disagree with me? I had it destroyed about a 100 times these last 3 years already, so don't worry about me

Just because you hear public figures stoop to using such platitudes when they run out of arguments, does not mean they are right and it most certainly does not mean they are having a well-argued stance in a debate

In T4 Norris and Verstappen touch wheels as Max drifts over the white line (ensuring Norris can't stay on track). It is utterly ridiculous to claim that Norris "opened up the steering" and "immediately turned right". He did so after they touched. Norris was pretty much full lock while Verstappen was the one who "opened up the steering" to drift to the white line.

You can check the highlights video for yourself, Norris turns right immediately after being pushed off and has 0 intention to make T5 within track limits. He left the track and gained an advantage, that's a clear 10s penalty.

I feel like you're confusing my arguments here, I'm not arguing 10s penalty for Max in T4 incident, he pushed Norris wide and got the penalty by the book. Just making sure you understand this

Your T8 argument falls apart because Verstappen got the penalty for T8 because he gained an advantage off track, not because Norris was forced wide (even though he was).

You're kidding me! I have to check this...

No, you're not kidding. Christ, that's an even worse penalty justification from stewards! Max was fully ahead of Norris by the time he left the track

[Emag]

No, you're not kidding. Christ, that's an even worse penalty justification from stewards! Max was fully ahead of Norris by the time he left the track

But he ended up leaving the track. If you allow drivers to overtake while going off the track at the exit without a penalty then that just kills the whole sport. Everyone would just overtake before the apex and it doesn't matter where they end up at the exit of the corner unless there is gravel. You can just stay on the throttle and rejoin whenever it's convenient for you while maintaining position.

Also your previous diagrams are not accurate when it comes to showing traces of where the cars are heading to. "Lando opened up the steering" is not an argument. If Lando doesn't make way for a charging Max on the inside, they will both crash. Of course he will open up the steering.

Remove the torpedo factor and Lando absolutely makes T8 normally there.

[Watto]

Were you watching a different race??

Guys, honestly, I'm not interested in redditing and twittering here. Driver ying yang does not interest me. I watched the race and rewatched both cases multiple times

If you have specific arguments to counter my point, by all means write them down and lets discuss

OK. T4: Lando was 100% making that corner until Max forced him off the road. If Lando didn't open up his steering to avoid Max then they collide. It is that simple and someone has already kindly provided still frames of the corner in the other thread to support this. T5 UNDER THE CURRENT RULES, is a separate corner and has no bearing.

T8: Even Max has offered no defence there, only complained about the penalty. So you seem to disagree with even the driver you're defending. When experienced F1 drivers up and down the grid are calling the T8 move "dangerous" and crossing the line, why do you think you know better than them?

I haven't gone into the depth of Vanja with the data.

I am fine with Max's penalties but I do think Lando went quick into T4 I won't say without the intent to make the T4 exit/T5 entry but realizing Max's move would be to push him wide. He in the end just made it but I think there was zero change he would pull off T5. I tend to think Lando knew it too and was quick to bail for it. I think the penalty was there and right for Max. I just perhaps don't Max is as much the villian as is being made out. I think McLaren have played this well to get the attention on Max when I think Lando has done virtually the same thing in a different way. Used the rules to his advantage I think he pushed the grey areas more then the media ect in general are reporting. I actualy liked it from Lando as its perhaps the first time I think hes shown he is willing to stray into that area in pushing the boundaries and get agressive, he played Max's own game against him, the grey area I perhaps see is Lando was I think the attacking driver coming into T4 with what I've also said above. - I think with the T4 incident if Max was in Landos position he would have done the same thing. Been quick to bail on the exit argued he was forced and ahead.

[PapayaFan481]

OK. T4: Lando was 100% making that corner until Max forced him off the road. If Lando didn't open up his steering to avoid Max then they collide. It is that simple and someone has already kindly provided still frames of the corner in the other thread to support this. T5 UNDER THE CURRENT RULES, is a separate corner and has no bearing.

T8: Even Max has offered no defence there, only complained about the penalty. So you seem to disagree with even the driver you're defending. When experienced F1 drivers up and down the grid are calling the T8 move "dangerous" and crossing the line, why do you think you know better than them?

In T4 Norris opened up his steering wheel and immediately turned right to cut T5 to overtake Max. He had no intention of making T5, but I can't say of his intention to leave track right after T4 even though he'd have to apply brakes a lot more to have any hope of making T5.

As for T8, Norris was 50m earlier on brakes than he was the next lap (Max was on brakes at about the same place as usual, though couple of meters early as well) and instead of going wide to switch back he keeps himself alongside Max.

https://i.ibb.co/wChMbDV/max-nor-mex-24.jpg

How did Max force Norris off track if Norris was so far back by the time they reach the track limit? What prevented him going right and wide a bit to turn left (yellow line) and let Max look like a total amateur for going off on his own? Nothing at all, it was his own choice to stick alongside Max and run wide, he was completely behind Max and therefore couldn't have been pushed wide because Max was already ahead. 10s penalty for Max has no legs to stand on, other than steward bias

https://i.ibb.co/pRjNGCb/max-nor-mex-24-1.jpg

I have no idea what you're on about all drivers calling the move dangerous, no one was asked. And if they were, they had no access to full telemetry or full video recordings like stewards do when they make their decisions

So Horner argued that Lando should have gotten a penalty for basically doing what Max did last week without getting a penalty?

Seems about right for Mr Horner.

Not sure what you're on about mate. Lando got a (reduced) penalty for overtaking outside the track last week and should have gotten it now too. It was cut by 5s in Austin because stewards acknowledged he was forced outside the track, but still got 5s because he decided to stick with an illegal overtake. Did he nott make an overtake outside the track in T5 in Mexico?

I've said my piece, you are making logical fallacies to support your argument but ignoring facts and evidence. I will not waste any more time restating my points. Other people have pointed the evidence out to you, you're ignoring it. You mention T5, that has no relevance in the current rule set at least, on T4. You say Norris opened up his steering and cut across T5 completely ignoring that the reason he did so was to avoid crashing with Max who was forcing him off the track. You state that the Stewards have more data than us and yet use that as a argument in support of your point??

The above poster is correct, you are destroying your credibility.

[PapayaFan481]

... Everyone can have their own opinion and we are countering arguments....

That is what is wrong with the Internet and society these days. There are people who think their opinion carries the same weight as facts and evidence do.

Unless you are an expert on the subject matter, opinions are the lowest level argument. Facts and evidence (used in the correct context of course) are the highest.

[FittingMechanics]

Mate, we're having a discussion. Everyone can have their own opinion and we are countering arguments. I'm just curious here, what makes you feel special by saying I'm destroying my credibility just because you disagree with me? I had it destroyed about a 100 times these last 3 years already, so don't worry about me

I've had a lot of respect for you but it's clear now that you are not objective, at least in this case.

In T4 Norris and Verstappen touch wheels as Max drifts over the white line (ensuring Norris can't stay on track). It is utterly ridiculous to claim that Norris "opened up the steering" and "immediately turned right". He did so after they touched. Norris was pretty much full lock while Verstappen was the one who "opened up the steering" to drift to the white line.

You can check the highlights video for yourself, Norris turns right immediately after being pushed off and has 0 intention to make T5 within track limits. He left the track and gained an advantage, that's a clear 10s penalty.

I feel like you're confusing my arguments here, I'm not arguing 10s penalty for Max in T4 incident, he pushed Norris wide and got the penalty by the book. Just making sure you understand this

I've checked the F1TV onboard of both drivers. It is very clear that Norris attempts to make the T5 by staying two wheels on track. But Verstappen drifts wide (intentionally or not doesn't really matter), they make small wheel to wheel contact as Norris is already partly outside the track and then Norris bails to go over the grass. If he didn't bail he would continue to bang wheels with Verstappen and end up on the grass as Verstappen had his outside wheels over the white line so there was no chance for Norris to stay on track side by side.

Only way Norris can stay on track is if when he sees they knock wheels to brake heavily and then attempt to slot in behind Verstappen. This is completely unrealistic action for a split second decision in a heavily contested area of the track (all cars bunched up still) as it would be quite dangerous.

We see these type of "bailouts" all the time in F1.

Btw, I do think that Norris should have given back that position to Verstappen. He finished his overtake on the grass and that should not be allowed. Would Norris give back the position (and whether stewards would punish him for it) we will never know as seconds later Verstappen took matters in his own hands by barging into T7.

But at the same time, Verstappen deserved a penalty for pushing Norris wide in that corner (and he got it).

Your T8 argument falls apart because Verstappen got the penalty for T8 because he gained an advantage off track, not because Norris was forced wide (even though he was).

You're kidding me! I have to check this...

No, you're not kidding. Christ, that's an even worse penalty justification from stewards! Max was fully ahead of Norris by the time he left the track

So you are making broad and strong statements without really knowing what the steward decision was. Maybe step back and think if that is right. Do you make technical analysis without looking at the photos?

How is that a worse penalty justification? Verstappen "divebombed" the corner, went off track, pushed Norris wide and got ahead of Norris. In the process he heavily compromised Norris and allowed Leclerc to overtake them both.

Are we supposed to allow racing where the driver can just steam into corner without braking properly, compromise other driver who needs to take avoiding action and then keep his position after going off track?

[Vanja #66]

But he ended up leaving the track. If you allow drivers to overtake while going off the track at the exit without a penalty then that just kills the whole sport. Everyone would just overtake before the apex and it doesn't matter where they end up at the exit of the corner unless there is gravel. You can just stay on the throttle and rejoin whenever it's convenient for you while maintaining position.

But in this case A) both drivers went off track, so there's no relative advantage to be gained by leaving it, B) Max being fully ahead before they went off was a result of early braking from Norris and tight line from Max and C) Leclerc overtook both of them, so obviously Max did not gain an advantage. T8 10s penalty is beyond farcical, I honestly can't believe how bad this Austin overcompensation was

Also your previous diagrams are not accurate when it comes to showing traces of where the cars are heading to. "Lando opened up the steering" is not an argument. If Lando doesn't make way for a charging Max on the inside, they will both crash. Of course he will open up the steering.

I made those traces the best I could, highlights show a helicopter camera angle, so you need to make a superposition of both cars to make it 100% accurate. I did it by taking nose positions on start and finish and drew a line through 3rd position on that particular screenshot. I think that point is moot, since I argued Max didn't push Norris off and this wasn't the actual reason for penalty

Lando opening up the steering and turning right immediately shows he doesn't want to lose more time and track position by slowing down and taking T5 from his position on track. That's fair since he was pushed wide. Still, he gained a position off track and that is a 10s penalty, is it not? Max got 10s without gaining any advantage in T8, so why didn't Norris?

I've said my piece, you are making logical fallacies to support your argument but ignoring facts and evidence. I will not waste any more time restating my points. Other people have pointed the evidence out to you, you're ignoring it. You mention T5, that has no relevance in the current rule set at least, on T4. You say Norris opened up his steering and cut across T5 completely ignoring that the reason he did so was to avoid crashing with Max who was forcing him off the track. You state that the Stewards have more data than us and yet use that as a argument in support of your point??

The above poster is correct, you are destroying your credibility.

Mate, you should read my posts fully before replying. You seem to be making your own conclusions based on partial information I wrote down.

As I said to Emag above, being pushed wide Norris cuts T5 not to lose more time and track position. He gains position off track, just like he did in Austin, but gets no penalty. My question is why, what changed in ruling?

Yes I said stewards have more data and they do. If you didn't notice, stewards are the subject I'm questioning here. Their inconsistency is shocking at this point

Ah, my credibility argument again... Seriously guys, leave it out already

[Seanspeed]

... Everyone can have their own opinion and we are countering arguments....

That is what is wrong with the Internet and society these days. There are people who think their opinion carries the same weight as facts and evidence do.

Unless you are an expert on the subject matter, opinions are the lowest level argument. Facts and evidence (used in the correct context of course) are the highest.

Well facts/evidence can be used dishonestly just as much as anything. And an opinion is supposed to be the result of somebody's observations of evidence/facts, so they're not like two inherently separate concepts.

[Ben1980]

Having not read everything.

I would guess that the decision on Norris being penalised for gaining an advantage, would be based on if they deemed he was in a position but forced off.

If he was forced off, I can't imagine ge can be penalised for gaining a position.

[Seanspeed]

Having not read everything.

I would guess that the decision on Norris being penalised for gaining an advantage, would be based on if they deemed he was in a position but forced off.

If he was forced off, I can't imagine ge can be penalised for gaining a position.

It doesn't matter if you're forced off or not, you cannot overtake off-track under any circumstances whatsoever.

[Vanja #66]

I've had a lot of respect for you but it's clear now that you are not objective, at least in this case.

That's probably at least 10th time I read this whenever I write something the other person doesn't like for the first time As a fan of neither driver and neither team, I'm arguing objectively against stewardship inconsistency, I thought I made that clear in my reply here

viewtopic.php?p=1254759#p1254759

Btw, I do think that Norris should have given back that position to Verstappen. He finished his overtake on the grass and that should not be allowed. Would Norris give back the position (and whether stewards would punish him for it) we will never know as seconds later Verstappen took matters in his own hands by barging into T7.

But at the same time, Verstappen deserved a penalty for pushing Norris wide in that corner (and he got it).

So if Norris doesn't give back the position he gained off track because he didn't have an opportunity to do so (he did, but lets say he didn't) why do they give Max 10s for T8 when he was already ahead and Norris gained a place off track just before? There's no logical reasoning in their ruling in that case, they say he didn't complete his manoeuvre on track when he absolutely did.

So you are making broad and strong statements without really knowing what the steward decision was. Maybe step back and think if that is right. Do you make technical analysis without looking at the photos?

How is that a worse penalty justification? Verstappen "divebombed" the corner, went off track, pushed Norris wide and got ahead of Norris. In the process he heavily compromised Norris and allowed Leclerc to overtake them both.

Are we supposed to allow racing where the driver can just steam into corner without braking properly, compromise other driver who needs to take avoiding action and then keep his position after going off track?

You are right, I didn't know the real penalty decision, it would never, ever, cross my mind that such an blatant explanation is possible. Obviously I shouldn't make that assumption any more, stewards can give whatever decision they feel like and it doesn't have to be logical, my bad.

As I showed before, Norris got on brakes about 50m earlier than usual and this gave an impression of a divebomb from Max. There was no divebomb in fact. I don't know why he didn't keep it on track, maybe he lost grip by going off the racing line so tight... As I also showed before, he can't push Norris off track if he was already ahead of Norris before they left the track. Pushing a driver ahead wide is not the same as pushing him off, pushing wide is an integral part of close racing and hard (but fair) overtaking.