2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[mwillems]

But, I don't see why they shouldn't have the same expectations. Your teammate is who you can really be based against. Oscar got the job, on the basis he would perform, and he has had to perform.

If Oscar was pulling a Perez, the case against him would be damning, and he would be going into last chance saloon already.

He Doesn't get a pass for being new, and he doesn't need one. Charles Leclerc 2nd season was pole position in his second race, 7 poles and 2 wins. You have to step up.

( I think Leclerc is better than both Mclaren drivers though)

Because you can't just come in and drive a Formula 1 car at this level and win a WDC. Of course it takes a hell of a lot of ability and also experience, as well as certain mental resilience.

Oscar does have to perform, and his team mate is his base. But I can't see any reason in your sentence, or in my head, why a driver is expected to be about as quick as a WDC contender after 1 season and 5 further races. I actually think that's quite a silly thing to say.

No way that after 1.5 seasons, Oscar should be expected to be legitimately as effective as a guy who's raced for 5.5 seasons or for anyone to think all the perks of being with the team and racing for F1 for all that time is of no benefit.

You've got high expectations, but I fear, only in the direction of one driver

Because others have been, as I said Leclerc walked into Ferrari season 2 and rolled over Vettel a 4 time world champion, hell Lewis walked in an gave Alonso a going over. Do we want to look at Oscar as similar levels of potential, we need to consider him against others.

Lando season 2 he finished 8 points behind his more experienced team mate. I'm sure with ups and downs. So, in reality he performed as he should. This isn't an Oscar Vs Lando thing. It's about a young driver doing what is expected of them.

But, I also think Oscar has performed as he should, and times even better.

Yeah Leclerc is great. But by and large in F1, that isn't how it works and he was racing against a guy who'd lost his powers before then, it just wasn't quite so obvious until as when Leclerc joined. In the vast majority, experience is required to get the car to do what you want it to do, some can transcend that. Leclerc, Hamilton, Nando and Max are the only ones in about 20 years. The sums up about how hard it is to be that guy,. that comes in at the front and does the business from day 1. it is telling that he was only a little better than Sainz overall at Ferrari, and I don't put him in the same class as Lando.

In any case, this all seems like an attempt to measure Lando and Oscar by different sticks, one in which Oscar is expected to come in and do more than what Lando was able to do when he started with mclaren and today, and whilst it is perfectly explainable that Lando hasn't pushed on and done more, it is right to expect Oscar to be the match of Lando.

When you put it down in words, it looks very silly, because it is.

Oscar looks to be a Sainz like driver because he's only about matching Lando's performance, whereas Lando is a WDC contender.


Hmmm.... doesn't quite add up. It almost feels like there is an outcome people would like to get to.

[mwillems]

Anyway, truly the last, enjoy debating/convincing yourselves!

[Ben1980]

Anyway, truly the last, enjoy debating/convincing yourselves!

Love a debate!

( it takes my mind off the USA)

[venkyhere]

Interesting debate going on...
If we pool the 4 drivers under discussion - Oscar, Lando, LeClerc and Max, and take their progress from when they first came in, until 2 seasons later, who is the odd man out ?

Oscar, LeClerc, Max - mega risk takers, willing to check what happens if they push from 99% to 100% and don't fear failure. As the years add on, the 'mistakes' become lesser (look at Max) and the ability to hit 99.99% from 99% consistently, keeps getting sharper. But they will go that extra 0.01% if push comes to shove - they all have that "f*** this, I am diving into the inside now, let the other guy avoid the crash" cavalier streak in them. And that's what is truly needed to 'be feared' as a driver. George Russel has it too.

Lando - risk averse. Methodically pushes from 99% to 99.99% but refuses to go that last 0.01%. Fears failure. But a very very reliable driver. Brings the car home. Obedient. Doesn't talk back harshly to the team or puts hit foot down over the team radio. A very 'correct' driver, but not a 'feared' driver.

[daren_p]

I'm interested in what we see with Norris next season, its been said he won't be a WDC because he doesn't have that killer instinct/ruthlessness of Max, as a fan of his I'd say that's probably true, but he does appear to have the desire to want to win a WDC, he seems to have a very good ability to learn & improve from his previous mistakes (especially over the off season). Hoping this year will be a big learning session & we'll see another jump from him next year, time will tell. I'd agree he's made his fair share of mistakes this year but for the most part so have all the other top tier drivers, which many seem to skip over. Hoping the team itself/strategy will also take a jump next year, as they dropped a lot of potential points over the season, very much looking forward to the new RB hire in that department.

[Darth-Piekus]

What is the definition of ruthlessness and killer instinct? Does it translate to battling others but respecting them or is it win at all costs?

[mwillems]

Anyway, truly the last, enjoy debating/convincing yourselves!

Love a debate!

( it takes my mind off the USA)

Ahahaha I try and keep away from the politics for the sake of our Russian and American friends!

[mwillems]

What is the definition of ruthlessness and killer instinct? Does it translate to battling others but respecting them or is it win at all costs?

Looking for the edge of the rules. Hamilton was the king of this, he could get to the edge of the rules but just be inside, by and large. Max is also very good, but is willing to go over it a little more if he thinks it will be a net benefit. I like the way Hamilton did it, but not so much Max as his driving is like his speaking. Blunt. Lewis was more subtle as well as better at staying just inside the rules, so he'd upset rival fans and generally get away with it.

But both are very clever and calculating on track to ensure they get what they want.

[Darth-Piekus]

Hamilton was ruthless when needed but I don't remember him playing outside of the rules or sending others off the track and he won 7 championships. He had a way to make a fool out of Max or other champions. Perhaps that is what Lando needs to do from next year. He doesn't have to play dirty. Just play cleverly.

[PapayaFan481]

Again with the bickering and driver Top Trumping...

We have 2 great drivers. Neither is the finished article. Either one could be a future WDC in a car competitive enough.

Lando has had some weaknesses this year, but has also been under a lot of pressure thanks to the media and fans who talked about the WDC that was, frankly, only ever a really long shot. I think he lacked decisiveness and was over cautious because he was aware that he couldn't afford a DNF.

People talk Charles up as one of the very best, and rightly so, but he is still making errors when under pressure. Even Max, Lewis and Alonso are not immune from them on occasion.

Lando has been thrown, somewhat unexpectedly, into an overhyped title fight and it is only natural for him to feel the pressure as a result.

Hopefully next season he comes back stronger and we have a car that allows him and Oscar to fight for victory at every race.

Personally I'm hoping next year is a return to the Ferrari vs McLaren years of old!!

[mwillems]

Again with the bickering and driver Top Trumping...

We have 2 great drivers. Neither is the finished article. Either one could be a future WDC in a car competitive enough.

Lando has had some weaknesses this year, but has also been under a lot of pressure thanks to the media and fans who talked about the WDC that was, frankly, only ever a really long shot. I think he lacked decisiveness and was over cautious because he was aware that he couldn't afford a DNF.

People talk Charles up as one of the very best, and rightly so, but he is still making errors when under pressure. Even Max, Lewis and Alonso are not immune from them on occasion.

Lando has been thrown, somewhat unexpectedly, into an overhyped title fight and it is only natural for him to feel the pressure as a result.

Hopefully next season he comes back stronger and we have a car that allows him and Oscar to fight for victory at every race.

Personally I'm hoping next year is a return to the Ferrari vs McLaren years of old!!

Which post was bickering and top trumping? Looked to me like a healthy discussion. Unless you're now also bickering?

I don't think the amount of mistakes is OK or understandable. I think he's underperformed and when that happens there should be accountability. We're here to win and perform at the highest level and he's let results get away from him too often for a driver expected to challenge Max.

I get that it would be difficult for a while but race 21 and he's still making rookie errors.

For me, that's far from understandable, he needs to sort his racing out.

[Darth-Piekus]

Something that I've been informed which may shed some light to the speed of the cars. Without taking out the mistakes that the team and Lando did which are understandable considering its their first time, there is a tech talk video from the official F1 with graphs that basically has Red Bull as the fastest car till Hungary with the score being 14 to Red Bull and 7 to Mclaren with Perez out of the equation since hes below average. With that in mind I would like to wait next year and see what Norris can do with a car that is top from the start.

[organic]

Something that I've been informed which may shed some light to the speed of the cars. Without taking out the mistakes that the team and Lando did which are understandable considering its their first time, there is a tech talk video from the official F1 with graphs that basically has Red Bull as the fastest car till Hungary with the score being 14 to Red Bull and 7 to Mclaren with Perez out of the equation since hes below average. With that in mind I would like to wait next year and see what Norris can do with a car that is top from the start.

Norris hasn't even scored the most points since Miami..