Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

[Vanja #66]

I don't doubt this practice is illegal (I used the wrong word "loophole" previously), I doubt anyone would be able to prove someone did it in past events.

Yeah, no, that aint happening

[PlatinumZealot]

Doubt it, this loophole, if it was real, will be closed by Pirelli who'll enhance supervision, and for past events you can't prove anything anymore, so no ground for official protest; I mean they did not even protest McLaren's Baku win with a full screen video showing a 2nd DRS lol

10.8.4 Treatment of tyres

a. Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.

b. Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or
in its inflation gas is forbidden.

c. A complete wheel must contain a single fixed internal gas volume. No valves, bleeds or
permeable membranes are permitted other than to inflate or deflate the tyre whilst the
car is stationary.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -04-25.pdf

However anyone spins it, it's quite clear what rules define as legal and illegal. Think I saw there was also a TD introduced to close a loophole after RB experimented with water inside tyres years ago, I imagine rules have been rewritten since.

I don't doubt this practice is illegal (I used the wrong word "loophole" previously), I doubt anyone would be able to prove someone did it in past events.

"Air" contents varies by weather and location. How does FIA define "air?" it must have some limits on the normal contents.
Remember, air already has a varying amount of water vapour in it. And at 100% humidity is still considered air. E.g when rain falls.


At 80 degrees C air can hold 8 grams of water per cubic meter at 100% Rel humidity so it's not much to get into a tyre.

Add to this the improvements in thermal conductity (note convection will come into play more) but conductivity also important at the boundary layer.

https://i.sstatic.net/aj3bh.png

[scuderiabrandon]

McLaren lodged an official complaint against red bull's adjustable t-tray although no evidence can be found in retrospect. I'm expecting the same thing to happen with Watergate

watergate

[dialtone]

McLaren lodged an official complaint against red bull's adjustable t-tray although no evidence can be found in retrospect. I'm expecting the same thing to happen with Watergate

watergate

Today of all days

[gandharva]

[Rikhart]

Formu1a Uno reports that red bull are not the only team that suspect McLaren did this

The latest case concerns McLaren's use of Pirelli compounds, a suspicion fueled and pushed by Red Bull but which has also found allies in other teams.

some teams strongly suspect that in Woking they had put water inside the tire via the inflation valve

Also the amounts in question are less than 10ml, not large quantities that would affect the unsprung mass considerably as speculated here

According to what Formu1a.uno learned in the last few hours, we are talking about milliliters , therefore very small quantities of water, considering that a single ml would allow a decrease of a few degrees in the temperature at the heart of the tire.

Recommend reading the full article

https://formu1a.uno/it/acqua-nelle-gomm ... -ha-prove/

Formu1a Uno going into this depth on the subject suggests to me that Ferrari believe that this idea holds some water

As I previously noted here, it fits very well as a "missing" puzzle on how McLaren operates their tyres in the race. Mediums in the first stint cooled down in this method would need slower laps initially and picking up the pace and even over-pushing them to heat up the carcass and make the water evaporate. At the same time, you extend the stint and lose minimal time compared to cars that are already on new Hards. Going 5-10 laps longer allows you to push like mad on Hards and you suspension geometry has no problem heating them up, even if they are harder to heat up than Mediums - because your Mediums are artificially cooled down. In the final 30-40% of the race you can be much faster than anyone else ahead, which is exactly what consistently happens with McLaren.

Very good analysis, thanks for that. It does indeed fit like a glove, I always thought it was very weird how often mclaren are nowhere in the start of races, and suddenly they become 1s a lap faster than anyone else, and can extend stints easily.

It will be extremely interesting to see if this pattern suddenly changes!

[Tommy Cookers]

... At 80 degrees C air can hold 8 grams of water per cubic meter at 100% Rel humidity so it's not much to get into a tyre.

Add to this the improvements in thermal conductity (note convection will come into play more) but conductivity also important at the boundary layer.
https://i.sstatic.net/aj3bh.png

what 'improvement in thermal conductivity' does the graph show ?

[Cassius]

I have the feeling Rob Marshall is really the one who has been pushing the boundaries here, bringing all the tricks from Red Bull and reapplying them to Mclaren. He seems to be the person not afraid to go a bit over the edge even. Marko mentioned he was an expert of flexible wings.

[Vanja #66]

I always thought it was very weird how often mclaren are nowhere in the start of races, and suddenly they become 1s a lap faster than anyone else, and can extend stints easily.

It will be extremely interesting to see if this pattern suddenly changes!

Being slow(er) at the start is every team's strategy to preserve tyres when the car is heavy and slow so you can't utilise downforce as much as you can later on. McLaren being very slow is more often the case when they are already behind. When they are in free air, they typically run as fast as the next best team and again - drop everyone in the final stint

I'm not sure how much of a fuss RBR managed to make to ensure additional scrutiny of McLaren-used tyres by Pirelli and FIA, so I'm not sure how much they will have to drop doing this - if they are doing this

[chrisc90]

Even if they weren’t doing it that RBR (or anyone knew about). Putting it into the media and making people talk about it will be job succeeded. It adds extra scrutiny on the FIA and Pirelli to check for things like that.

[PapayaFan481]

Formu1a Uno reports that red bull are not the only team that suspect McLaren did this

The latest case concerns McLaren's use of Pirelli compounds, a suspicion fueled and pushed by Red Bull but which has also found allies in other teams.

some teams strongly suspect that in Woking they had put water inside the tire via the inflation valve

Also the amounts in question are less than 10ml, not large quantities that would affect the unsprung mass considerably as speculated here

According to what Formu1a.uno learned in the last few hours, we are talking about milliliters , therefore very small quantities of water, considering that a single ml would allow a decrease of a few degrees in the temperature at the heart of the tire.

Recommend reading the full article

https://formu1a.uno/it/acqua-nelle-gomm ... -ha-prove/

Formu1a Uno going into this depth on the subject suggests to me that Ferrari believe that this idea holds some water

The Race, in their video on this state that normally other teams will admit to suspicions off the record, yet none have in this instance, with only Red Bull saying anything.

Also they report that the FIA and Pirelli had already carried out random spot checks on tyres prior to the story breaking and found ZERO evidence of anyone doing anything untoward in any of the teams accused (remembering that it is not just McLaren - sorry to all the Woking haters on here).

This strikes me entirely as a strategy to try and destabilise their competition, because it's odd how it is only the other 3 top teams they pointed the finger at.

[Farnborough]

Papayafan481, ever been in a management team when something that is likey to be potentially serious, in repercussions, has been going on ?

Then has to be sorted out in some way.

Nobody will want to get near this one, for many reasons. Put bluntly, some managerial levels won't be aware of some things at lower levels

Conversations like "I don't know what's been going on in OUR team, but tell me now that we will never be involved in something like that in future races" do happen. It's a way of a senior manager severing the responsibility line, such that they won't be caught or associated with such behaviour from here on .....

Noted silence, from any direction, prevents awkward questions being faced.

Then everyone moves on ..... to the next whisper

[PapayaFan481]

Papayafan481, ever been in a management team when something that is likey to be potentially serious, in repercussions, has been going on ?

Then has to be sorted out in some way.

Nobody will want to get near this one, for many reasons. Put bluntly, some managerial levels won't be aware of some things at lower levels

Conversations like "I don't know what's been going on in OUR team, but tell me now that we will never be involved in something like that in future races" do happen. It's a way of a senior manager severing the responsibility line, such that they won't be caught or associated with such behaviour from here on .....

Noted silence, from any direction, prevents awkward questions being faced.

Then everyone moves on ..... to the next whisper

No, because I work in an industry where if something like that was going on, people's lives would be at risk.

And your comment does not address the fact that Pirelli and the FIA investigated and found NO evidence to support Red Bull's conspiracy theory. Mind you, passing tests and inspections seems only to serve to strengthen some McLaren haters' belief that they are cheating.

There is only 1 team that we KNOW was doing this because they admitted as much - Red Bull. Has anyone checked their tyres??

[AR3-GP]

No, because I work in an industry where if something like that was going on, people's lives would be at risk.

And your comment does not address the fact that Pirelli and the FIA investigated and found NO evidence to support Red Bull's conspiracy theory. Mind you, passing tests and inspections seems only to serve to strengthen some McLaren haters' belief that they are cheating.

There is only 1 team that we KNOW was doing this because they admitted as much - Red Bull. Has anyone checked their tyres??

As explained by Mario Isola, "it is impossible to check the tyres of the previous rounds, because the checks should be done at the moment. We would certainly not find water but we could analyze the humidity levels found inside the tire."

https://formu1a.uno/it/acqua-nelle-gomm ... -ha-prove/

[AR3-GP]

After the race, Red Bull's team principal, Christian Horner decided to keep his answer brief about the matter. "No comment," the Briton said.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/311730/r ... ering.html