2024 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 01 - 03

[basti313]

This had nothing to do with luck at all but with common sense and then take a chance.
If the conditions on the track are already very bad because of the rain and there is a lot more rain coming in 4 minutes,
then everyone understands that a red flag will be raised very quickly. Nobody knows how soon, but that red flag will come.
As said: It has nothing to do with luck, but thinking carefully and using your common sense.
Ocon and Gasly also used their common sense. Russell did it too but he wasn't allowed.

Well, I would add, that when the discission was made, it was a free stop. At this point, pitting under VSC without loosing position and reducing the risk of aquaplaning into the wall before the red flag was ok. I think they were well aware of the most likely to come red flag, but wanted to play it safe.
It was their simple error not to change it once Hulkenberg was driving away.

[marcel171281]

This had nothing to do with luck at all but with common sense and then take a chance.
If the conditions on the track are already very bad because of the rain and there is a lot more rain coming in 4 minutes,
then everyone understands that a red flag will be raised very quickly. Nobody knows how soon, but that red flag will come.
As said: It has nothing to do with luck, but thinking carefully and using your common sense.
Ocon and Gasly also used their common sense. Russell did it too but he wasn't allowed.

Well, I would add, that when the discission was made, it was a free stop. At this point, pitting under VSC without loosing position and reducing the risk of aquaplaning into the wall before the red flag was ok. I think they were well aware of the most likely to come red flag, but wanted to play it safe.
It was their simple error not to change it once Hulkenberg was driving away.

The VSC ended already when Norris and Russell were in pit entry. Their stops were 90% under green conditions. McLaren and Mercedes could have seem this happening, they have live feed op the pit wall like everyone else and Hulkenberg was already on its way.

Also Ocon, Verstappen and Gasly they didn't have a chance of pitting under VSC, it already went back to green before they came close to pit entry.

[basti313]

This had nothing to do with luck at all but with common sense and then take a chance.
If the conditions on the track are already very bad because of the rain and there is a lot more rain coming in 4 minutes,
then everyone understands that a red flag will be raised very quickly. Nobody knows how soon, but that red flag will come.
As said: It has nothing to do with luck, but thinking carefully and using your common sense.
Ocon and Gasly also used their common sense. Russell did it too but he wasn't allowed.

Well, I would add, that when the discission was made, it was a free stop. At this point, pitting under VSC without loosing position and reducing the risk of aquaplaning into the wall before the red flag was ok. I think they were well aware of the most likely to come red flag, but wanted to play it safe.
It was their simple error not to change it once Hulkenberg was driving away.

The VSC ended already when Norris and Russell were in pit entry. Their stops were 90% under green conditions. McLaren and Mercedes could have seem this happening, they have live feed op the pit wall like everyone else and Hulkenberg was already on its way.

Also Ocon, Verstappen and Gasly they didn't have a chance of pitting under VSC, it already went back to green before they came close to pit entry.

Yes. It was 10 or 15sec with display "VSC ending" before Russel and Norris entered the pits. Before some seconds that Hulkenberg drove off. So really a long time to react in terms of F1 strategy.

[Bill]

This had nothing to do with luck at all but with common sense and then take a chance.
If the conditions on the track are already very bad because of the rain and there is a lot more rain coming in 4 minutes,
then everyone understands that a red flag will be raised very quickly. Nobody knows how soon, but that red flag will come.
As said: It has nothing to do with luck, but thinking carefully and using your common sense.
Ocon and Gasly also used their common sense. Russell did it too but he wasn't allowed.

Well, I would add, that when the discission was made, it was a free stop. At this point, pitting under VSC without loosing position and reducing the risk of aquaplaning into the wall before the red flag was ok. I think they were well aware of the most likely to come red flag, but wanted to play it safe.
It was their simple error not to change it once Hulkenberg was driving away.

Calapinto crash triggered the redflag at that point they was no excess water to the extent that it will stop racing.f1 stopped refueling to prevent drivers from overtaking in the pits .allowing drivers to change tires under redflag is the equivalent of of overtaking in the pits a in other words fights are not settled on track.

[chrisc90]

Well, I would add, that when the discission was made, it was a free stop. At this point, pitting under VSC without loosing position and reducing the risk of aquaplaning into the wall before the red flag was ok. I think they were well aware of the most likely to come red flag, but wanted to play it safe.
It was their simple error not to change it once Hulkenberg was driving away.

The VSC ended already when Norris and Russell were in pit entry. Their stops were 90% under green conditions. McLaren and Mercedes could have seem this happening, they have live feed op the pit wall like everyone else and Hulkenberg was already on its way.

Also Ocon, Verstappen and Gasly they didn't have a chance of pitting under VSC, it already went back to green before they came close to pit entry.

Yes. It was 10 or 15sec with display "VSC ending" before Russel and Norris entered the pits. Before some seconds that Hulkenberg drove off. So really a long time to react in terms of F1 strategy.

Just gone back and looked at that on F1Tv.

VSC Ending comes up when Russel and Lando are just before the gantry on the start/finish straight. See photos for reference.




Hulkenberg got moving again at 1:04.45 into the F1tv stream, and as you can see from the shot directionally ahead, the VSC was ending at 1:04.58 - maybe a second or 2 before at most.

So there was roughly 13-15seconds from when Hulkenberg got moving - the reason for the VSC and cleared the track and when it was ending. From the gantry, there is probably only a handful of car lengths before the pit entry line, probably a couple of seconds at absolute most at racing speed in the rain.

Whether you could have anticipated the VSC ending before that and told Lando to stay out then it would be a very very fine margain to make. It would have had to have been done when Hulkenberg got moving when Norris had just exited the final corner. (when there is more than enough time to cancel the call to box)

[basti313]

Just gone back and looked at that on F1Tv.

VSC Ending comes up when Russel and Lando are just before the gantry on the start/finish straight. See photos for reference.

Is this from the normal feed? As far as I remember it the "VSC ending" was already on when Hulkenberg was shown before this scene.

[chrisc90]

Probably on for 1-2 seconds at most.

[Dunlay]

.
"Norris was right, he was lucky, he wasn't bitter."

This had nothing to do with luck at all but with common sense and then take a chance.
If the conditions on the track are already very bad because of the rain and there is a lot more rain coming in 4 minutes,
then everyone understands that a red flag will be raised very quickly. Nobody knows how soon, but that red flag will come.
As said: It has nothing to do with luck, but thinking carefully and using your common sense.
Ocon and Gasly also used their common sense. Russell did it too but he wasn't allowed.

What kind of common sense tells anyone to wait on and on for a Red Flag, when it didn't happen for 28 laps? Race leaders have bigger pressure to make the right decision, whereas someone stuck in the midfield can afford to take risks. It's that simple. It happened to Lando in Russia in 2021. Luck favored Max in Russia then and in Brazil now. Was it lack of wisdom on Red Bull's part to have lost out in Miami due to a SC?

[lh13]

All of this can be sorted by re-arranging cars during red flag. The cars that want to change tires during red flag, add a pre-determined pitstop time to their race time (based on where they were before the red flag), and then arrange cars based on those times / positions. Drivers can choose not to take new tyres during red flag, for track position.

If the lead car changes tyres during red flag, add a pitstop time (e.g. 22 seconds), and every car that was within that time of the leader, moves up once place.

[Wouter]

.
"Norris was right, he was lucky, he wasn't bitter."

This had nothing to do with luck at all but with common sense and then take a chance.
If the conditions on the track are already very bad because of the rain and there is a lot more rain coming in 4 minutes,
then everyone understands that a red flag will be raised very quickly. Nobody knows how soon, but that red flag will come.
As said: It has nothing to do with luck, but thinking carefully and using your common sense.
Ocon and Gasly also used their common sense. Russell did it too but he wasn't allowed.

.
What kind of common sense tells anyone to wait on and on for a Red Flag, when it didn't happen for 28 laps? Race leaders have bigger pressure to make the right decision, whereas someone stuck in the midfield can afford to take risks. It's that simple. It happened to Lando in Russia in 2021. Luck favored Max in Russia then and in Brazil now. Was it lack of wisdom on Red Bull's part to have lost out in Miami due to a SC?

.
I didn't respond to your answer last time because you always downplay Max as you are a Mercedes fan.
Again: Lambiase said that it would rain more heavily in 4 minutes and Max decided to gamble on a red flag,
because it was already almost impossible to drive. However, Colapinto crashed and that resulted in the red flag.

[Farnborough]

All of this can be sorted by re-arranging cars during red flag. The cars that want to change tires during red flag, add a pre-determined pitstop time to their race time (based on where they were before the red flag), and then arrange cars based on those times / positions. Drivers can choose not to take new tyres during red flag, for track position.

If the lead car changes tyres during red flag, add a pitstop time (e.g. 22 seconds), and every car that was within that time of the leader, moves up once place.

Then it would have to be controlled with the opposite effect, that of gaining advantage by stopping when a safety car period etc is in place.

That'd be no pitstop under such control, to avoid false gains.

Everyone can make suggestions to project their preferred outcome in reality.

It happened as it did, the result is what we have, they all know the rules in place as it stands, the advantage and risk is layed out clearly.

Sporting rules will always have to have in place something to operate with.

[basti313]

Probably on for 1-2 seconds at most.

Hmm....there is a mandatory time for the display. This is 10sec if I am not mistaken. The VSC ended around when Norris and Russel were at the pit entry line.
I still think this is enough time to cancel. That needs to be an automatic procedure...so we pit in any case or just because of the VSC?...then accordingly cancel immediately when the VSC ends.

If the lead car changes tyres during red flag, add a pitstop time (e.g. 22 seconds), and every car that was within that time of the leader, moves up once place.

1. You would certainly not add 22 sec. The current mismatch is/was always to a Safety Car stop. So it would be 7-8sec. Depending on the point that they run as fast as allowed to the Safety Car... I think in Brazil no one was at the safety car time except Colapinto...
2. You would need a green flag running order. It does not make sense if they circle for some laps behind the SC like in Saudi to adjust to the gaps after the SC was out, it needs to be taken for the timing before.
3. I think they would even need to go further: Take the green flag order and apply a time penalty to everyone that pitted under SC and Red Flag as they have no correct order without. In the end this would be highly unfair against those who pitted as the others at least know the outcome of the penalty and can adjust accordingly.
4. A green flag order would create a huge mess with crashes and pitstops right at the crash time. We had this issue in Australia, where getting the order after the restart crash was quite a mess.

[marcel171281]

It is irrelevant whether changing tyres is allowed under red flags or not. Is just changes the one who benefit.
With the current rules, the ones staying out will benefit, as they have a free stop. If you don't allow tyre changes under red, the ones pitted before the red flag benefit the same way, as the ones that did not pit will either have to do that after the restart and fall back to (nearly) last place (dry race), or if they don't pit (wet race), are in front on way older tyres for the rest of the race.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Either way, discussions will stay.

[organic]

It is irrelevant whether changing tyres is allowed under red flags or not. Is just changes the one who benefit.
With the current rules, the ones staying out will benefit, as they have a free stop. If you don't allow tyre changes under red, the ones pitted before the red flag benefit the same way, as the ones that did not pit will either have to do that after the restart and fall back to (nearly) last place (dry race), or if they don't pit (wet race), are in front on way older tyres for the rest of the race.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Either way, discussions will stay.

The issue is that the current system encourages drivers to stay out on inappropriate tyres to benefit from changing under the inevitable red flag. But this itself raises the chance of causing crashes/red flags. There needs to be a change for safety reasons

[basti313]

It is irrelevant whether changing tyres is allowed under red flags or not. Is just changes the one who benefit.
With the current rules, the ones staying out will benefit, as they have a free stop. If you don't allow tyre changes under red, the ones pitted before the red flag benefit the same way, as the ones that did not pit will either have to do that after the restart and fall back to (nearly) last place (dry race), or if they don't pit (wet race), are in front on way older tyres for the rest of the race.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Either way, discussions will stay.

The issue is that the current system encourages drivers to stay out on inappropriate tyres to benefit from changing under the inevitable red flag. But this itself raises the chance of causing crashes/red flags. There needs to be a change for safety reasons

No, at least not on the red flag rule.
If you want to have safety under rain you need to make heavy wets mandatory at some point including the mandatory pit stop next lap. Everything else is nonsense. No one changed to new Inters for safety reasons, only because of a potentially free stop. Colapinto crashed with new Inters, the ones on old, hot Inters did not crash.
Do not be this hypocrite claiming that new Inters vs. old Inters is safety reasons while pouring rain is there just because your favorites messed up the situation.