2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

[BassVirolla]

100% biofuel and near 50/50 power from ICE and hybrid system is a lot different. I hear the first year will be about energy density and recovery, which is why SS batteries could play an important role in not only weight distribution but also in durability over repeated charge cycles. Honda is keen to use F1 as the testbed but also the proving grounds to market their technology. I expect there to be difficulties and some surprise low key innovations relating to aero surfaces and the use of excess heat that influence flow separation and drag reduction. One clue - there's no more MGU-H from 2026 but something has got to take the heat, and dumping it off to the environment is counter to thermal efficiency.

Fuel source does not matter, it what the fuel energy density that matters, not going to be too different to current.

There is no 50 : 50 power

Technically, the ICE=Internal Combustion Engine, will not changing that much. The MGU-H, MGU-K and the turbo are all separate entities and part of the PU. How it will be used is gonna change alot though.

I think the manufacturers will dive even deeper in the Miller cicle, reducing the amount of blowdown and back pressure, now that the MGUH will not be there anymore.

I think that we will see ICEs running much more time at full power with the MGUK recovering while under partial throttle (i.e. partial torque demand from the PU), and emphasis put in even leaner combustion and efficient turbines (while until now the emphasis was put in efficient compressors maximizing the power available to the MGUH and thanks to the MGUH accounting for lag / boost threshold.

I can be totally wrong, but it's my gut feeling.

Mods, move it if you think you should. Totally off topic, but in line with the discussion.

[Rodak]

F1 would definitely be a good test bed for them. They claim to be half the weight for the same storage capacity. So basically the same weight as the battery they're using now with double the capcity. Weight (10-15kg) is always hard to lose on these cars in new regs. The other added plus is they're shape is more flexible, making it easier to find a slot for them.

There is a weight floor in place for the engines which I haven’t seen touted as being especially difficult to hit. The only reason you would want solid state batteries is for marginal weight distribution gains and packaging.

All good and well except that the Technical Regulations for 2026 mandate a battery minimum weight of 35kg.

[diffuser]

Fuel source does not matter, it what the fuel energy density that matters, not going to be too different to current.

There is no 50 : 50 power

Technically, the ICE=Internal Combustion Engine, will not changing that much. The MGU-H, MGU-K and the turbo are all separate entities and part of the PU. How it will be used is gonna change alot though.

I think the manufacturers will dive even deeper in the Miller cicle, reducing the amount of blowdown and back pressure, now that the MGUH will not be there anymore.

I think that we will see ICEs running much more time at full power with the MGUK recovering while under partial throttle (i.e. partial torque demand from the PU), and emphasis put in even leaner combustion and efficient turbines (while until now the emphasis was put in efficient compressors maximizing the power available to the MGUH and thanks to the MGUH accounting for lag / boost threshold.

I can be totally wrong, but it's my gut feeling.

Mods, move it if you think you should. Totally off topic, but in line with the discussion.

Think you're right. I just don’t see any turbo lag. I doudt they'll let the ICE drop to a rpm where it doesn't have boost built up.

[organic]

[bananapeel23]

F1 would definitely be a good test bed for them. They claim to be half the weight for the same storage capacity. So basically the same weight as the battery they're using now with double the capcity. Weight (10-15kg) is always hard to lose on these cars in new regs. The other added plus is they're shape is more flexible, making it easier to find a slot for them.

There is a weight floor in place for the engines which I haven’t seen touted as being especially difficult to hit. The only reason you would want solid state batteries is for marginal weight distribution gains and packaging.

All good and well except that the Technical Regulations for 2026 mandate a battery minimum weight of 35kg.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about what I say below. I only took a glance at the regulations.

There is still utility for solid state batteries. Even if the minimum ES weight is 35kg, there doesn't appear to be a rule about minimum ES dimensions, at least from what I could tell at a glance from reading the regs. So if you get a very energy dense battery that delivers enough capacity at say 25kg, you could pack the bottom of the ES with tungsten to hit 35kg, (at least I couldn't find anything that prevents this, you can only have one spec of energy cell, but nothing explicitly prohibits putting non-energy cell stuff in the ES).

That way you get a small and dense ES, with most of the weight at the bottom. You could also shift around some of the tungsten ballast to improve weight distribution, although you obviously can't homologate several new ES specs in a season, so you get one or two opportunities per season to distribute the weight.

This type of ES would have minor packaging and CoG benefits, so there is some merit to solid state batteries, but I don't know if it would be worth the cost to develop them when engine development is subject to a budget cap.

[NAPI10]

I didn't realize, AM built 'Silverstone walk track'
Thats impressive infra project to complete in 3 years time.

[-wkst-]

Michael Schmidt (AMuS) visited Adrian Newey in the UK (part 1):
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/vid ... ey-teil-1/

[TyreSlip]

Michael Schmidt (AMuS) visited Adrian Newey in the UK (part 1):
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/vid ... ey-teil-1/

Thanks for the link. Newey seems genuine when he says he looks forward to working with Fernando.

[KimiRai]

Michael Schmidt (AMuS) visited Adrian Newey in the UK (part 1):
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/vid ... ey-teil-1/

Thanks for the link. Newey seems genuine when he says he looks forward to working with Fernando.

That smile

[wiktor977]

Technically, the ICE=Internal Combustion Engine, will not changing that much. The MGU-H, MGU-K and the turbo are all separate entities and part of the PU. How it will be used is gonna change alot though.

I think the manufacturers will dive even deeper in the Miller cicle, reducing the amount of blowdown and back pressure, now that the MGUH will not be there anymore.

I think that we will see ICEs running much more time at full power with the MGUK recovering while under partial throttle (i.e. partial torque demand from the PU), and emphasis put in even leaner combustion and efficient turbines (while until now the emphasis was put in efficient compressors maximizing the power available to the MGUH and thanks to the MGUH accounting for lag / boost threshold.

I can be totally wrong, but it's my gut feeling.

Mods, move it if you think you should. Totally off topic, but in line with the discussion.

Think you're right. I just don’t see any turbo lag. I doudt they'll let the ICE drop to a rpm where it doesn't have boost built up.

If so is it possible that fuel economy will again be a big topic as it was at the beginning of the V6 era?

[Rikrikrik]

Michael Schmidt (AMuS) visited Adrian Newey in the UK (part 1):
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/vid ... ey-teil-1/

Thanks for the link. Newey seems genuine when he says he looks forward to working with Fernando.

That smile

https://i.imgur.com/mp8v4ii.png

He looks like an anxious young boy after graduate who got his first job yesterday

[peewon]

So Newey thinks its likely to be a PU driven formula and says that if the main advantage is ICE driven then it would likely last the whole regulation cycle. No wonder Mercedes has been so adamant at not wanting any changes to the regs. Also its kind of a giveaway that its not a simple continuation of the previous regs on the ICE side and he expects evolution.

[diffuser]

I think the manufacturers will dive even deeper in the Miller cicle, reducing the amount of blowdown and back pressure, now that the MGUH will not be there anymore.

I think that we will see ICEs running much more time at full power with the MGUK recovering while under partial throttle (i.e. partial torque demand from the PU), and emphasis put in even leaner combustion and efficient turbines (while until now the emphasis was put in efficient compressors maximizing the power available to the MGUH and thanks to the MGUH accounting for lag / boost threshold.

I can be totally wrong, but it's my gut feeling.

Mods, move it if you think you should. Totally off topic, but in line with the discussion.

Think you're right. I just don’t see any turbo lag. I doudt they'll let the ICE drop to a rpm where it doesn't have boost built up.

If so is it possible that fuel economy will again be a big topic as it was at the beginning of the V6 era?

I can't see how it can't. It's part of the reason for the new regs. How big, the balance, I don't know. That will play out and I'm sure they'll adjust the regs if it impacts the racing.

[KimiRai]

So Newey thinks its likely to be a PU driven formula and says that if the main advantage is ICE driven then it would likely last the whole regulation cycle. No wonder Mercedes has been so adamant at not wanting any changes to the regs. Also its kind of a giveaway that its not a simple continuation of the previous regs on the ICE side and he expects evolution.

Someone previously claimed Honda had an advantage on the ICE and was behind on the electrical side. Obviously take this with an extremely big pinch of salt.

The among thing inside the paddock is that like now, Honda is expected to have nearly 10-20hp advantage on the ice for 2026. The electrical battery storage and cooling is where the issue is as Mercedes, Ford, Ferrari are ahead (in the order of performance). Honda is struggling to bring the weight down as well. However it probably for now the only engine not suffering from turbo spikes and lag(Ford and Ferrari are struggling which is why their simulations show horrible spinouts at top speed). Mercedes is still the best option but Honda has the least amount of problems to fix and the msot easiast probelms to fix(this is why they backtracked and rejoined f1 efforts). The ice tech used is very similar to the inline 4 engines used in super gt and the v6 engine used on Indycars.

[ispano6]

So Newey thinks its likely to be a PU driven formula and says that if the main advantage is ICE driven then it would likely last the whole regulation cycle. No wonder Mercedes has been so adamant at not wanting any changes to the regs. Also its kind of a giveaway that its not a simple continuation of the previous regs on the ICE side and he expects evolution.

He also mentioned that IF the main advantage is the hybrid system then it may be easier for others to catch up sooner.

So Newey thinks its likely to be a PU driven formula and says that if the main advantage is ICE driven then it would likely last the whole regulation cycle. No wonder Mercedes has been so adamant at not wanting any changes to the regs. Also its kind of a giveaway that its not a simple continuation of the previous regs on the ICE side and he expects evolution.

Someone previously claimed Honda had an advantage on the ICE and was behind on the electrical side. Obviously take this with an extremely big pinch of salt.

The among thing inside the paddock is that like now, Honda is expected to have nearly 10-20hp advantage on the ice for 2026. The electrical battery storage and cooling is where the issue is as Mercedes, Ford, Ferrari are ahead (in the order of performance). Honda is struggling to bring the weight down as well. However it probably for now the only engine not suffering from turbo spikes and lag(Ford and Ferrari are struggling which is why their simulations show horrible spinouts at top speed). Mercedes is still the best option but Honda has the least amount of problems to fix and the msot easiast probelms to fix(this is why they backtracked and rejoined f1 efforts). The ice tech used is very similar to the inline 4 engines used in super gt and the v6 engine used on Indycars.

Before Honda had announced their return to F1 as an engine PU supplier, current president Mr. Mibe said that they will phase out internal combustion engines by 2040. It was the general consensus among the Japanese press that we wouldn't see a next generation ICE from Honda other than the 2.0L block (Acura and larger Honda cars may continue to use variants of the V6s). However, a small mention and presentation slide recently shown at the Tochigi test track during the Honda Prelude press drive surprised some that a new 1.5L engine with approximately 40% more torque and improved fuel efficiency thanks to a new generation high flow port had been in development for the past 2 years and set to be introduced in 2026. The peak horsepower of the ICE improved over previous designs where peak power output would plateau as the engine reached max RPM. This next generation ICE is said to have improved stoichiometric AFR and is apparently silent. This application is not for the Honda 0 series and is the next-generation e:HEV, so whether or not this push is due to Honda's continued F1 involvement remains to be seen.