Jenson Button has masterfully driven to his first win of the year, his first for McLaren. In the early stages he switched tyres at the right time while he succesfully nursed his option tyres to the end of the race. Robert Kubica is a happy second for Renault, followed by Felipe Massa.
WhiteBlue wrote:
It is clear that Kubica is behind Alonso and Button could have braked much harder and earlier without endangering him.
I love comments like this.
It's so easy from the comfort of your armchair and with hindsight to say that a driver had room behind him and he could have braked ealier / harder. A driver was part of a three abreast battle, braking at multiple 'g', changing down several gears, trying to spot a braking point and apex etc. and someone thinks he should have known that a fourth driver who was probably little more than a blur in the mirror was not in the way. Hilarious
One could just as easily argue that Alonso should have known that Button was there and that he shouldn't turn in to the corner when he did. Hell, one could even argue, using the original logic, that Schumacher should not have moved across on Alonso as Alosno needed room because of Button.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
dumrick wrote:Furthermore, there's no point in saying Button should have braked earlier - where you brake in the approach of the first turn is the big gamble in starts. After you commit to braking, you brake as hard as possible, if there's no free space available ahead of you, like in this case.
This isn't convincing nor does it fit with the sequence of pictures. If Button had been at maximum breaking when he hit Alonso's rear wheel with his front wheel or front wing (as seen in the picture before), he would have surely rammed Alonso broadside before they passed the apex. That did not happen. Ergo Button was able to continue to brake or increase his braking rate while Alonso went into a power slide making the apex. They must have been pretty slow for Alonso to pull this off. That again shows that Button wasn't likely braking at max rate.
It shows that Button had at least two options at the point where he went straight for the apex. He could have compromised his line to avoid Alonso and perhaps get on the grass to the inside with two wheels or he could have increased his braking rate as he apparently did later. He muscled his way through and that shows some excess of aggression compared to the other drivers. I dare say that Schumacher had been crucified had he done what Button did in the situation.
Alonso had perhaps 30 cm (12 inches) room to the left towards Schumacher. That would have never been enough to let all three cars go round the corner.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue wrote:
It is clear that Kubica is behind Alonso and Button could have braked much harder and earlier without endangering him.
I love comments like this. .
I actually only made this comment because someone already asserted that Button had no clear space behind him to allow for harder braking. That wasn't the case. Please see this as a simple statement of fact.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
look at this video, LH passed Massa right after Webber did it. Webber wanted to do the same thing when LH was attacking Alonso. But Fred closed the door and LH had to brake, so Webber smashed into LH.
Webber should have understood that he just doesn't have the skills. His mistake was that he braked too late and was too close. If you notice how Hamilton overtakes, he always has room to retract in the case the car in front changes positioning. Hamilton's braking ability is also something Webber does not have, Webber tried the late braking thing and it back fired.
Secondly Webber's line for the attempted overtake was very dangerous, it was too straight, such lines usually spear the other car off into the gravel trap; something similar to the kobayashi, hulkenburg crash could have happened.
The amount of speed Lewis carried through that corner when Webber was having a crack at Massa is incredible. He was a long way back, but managed to get ahead of both, before Webber braked too late and went off.
JamesS wrote:The amount of speed Lewis carried through that corner when Webber was having a crack at Massa is incredible. He was a long way back, but managed to get ahead of both, before Webber braked too late and went off.
I would rather say Massa was way too slow after Webber took him
WhiteBlue wrote:This isn't convincing nor does it fit with the sequence of pictures. If Button had been at maximum breaking when he hit Alonso's rear wheel with his front wheel or front wing (as seen in the picture before), he would have surely rammed Alonso broadside before they passed the apex. That did not happen. Ergo Button was able to continue to brake or increase his braking rate while Alonso went into a power slide making the apex. They must have been pretty slow for Alonso to pull this off. That again shows that Button wasn't likely braking at max rate.
This is kind of irrelevant, since Alonso was going faster than Button when he clipped him. I think what you want to argue is that Button should have braked earlier, not harder.
Actually, I don't know what you want to argue, since on the one hand, you're calling his move "kamikaze"; and on the other saying that he was going slow enough that he could have braked harder than he did.
For "kamikaze", see Mark Webber vs Hamilton. Twice.
WhiteBlue wrote:
It is clear that Kubica is behind Alonso and Button could have braked much harder and earlier without endangering him.
I love comments like this. .
I actually only made this comment because someone already asserted that Button had no clear space behind him to allow for harder braking. That wasn't the case. Please see this as a simple statement of fact.
It wasn't a dig at you (hence the smiley) just an observation of how fans make comments about how a driver should have done this or known that etc. when none of us armchair enthusiasts have any experience of driving something as brutal as an F1 , let alone trying to thread it through a corner with several others etc.
For all we know, for example, Button may not have known that Alonso had Schumacher outside of him. Likewise, Alonso may not have known how far alongside Button really was.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
@WB: Analyzing what happened in T1 with a bunch of static images defies common sense. How can you make any serious decision about who was right or wrong, when it's not possible to understand the momentum and relative speed of all the cars?
If anyone was in the wrong, they'd have had their hands slapped, and nobody did. End of.
It's amazing how much the fanboys have hijacked this thread. If it isn't about Hamilton, or Schumacher, or Alonso then they just have nothing to say.
The Melbourne race definitely had it's share of thrills and spills. The weather really stirred the cocktail, and gave us the fans something that definitely was not boring.
Congratulations to all three who found their way to the podium. Jenson Button, you kept your cool, made the right decisions at the right times and used your personal strengths to win. You were the best driver. Robert Kubica has proven what every Formula One insider already knows, that he's darn good. It was practically a flawless race for him, he was very aggressive when it mattered, yet brought the car home in a very well-deserved second. And Felipe Massa, the missing man. Missing because in this thread, no one has seriously talked about Massa. Felipe has retured from what could have been a career-ending injury, not only to retain his seat at Ferrari, but do what no one else has done so far this year. Two races so far, and Massa is the only man to be on the podium both times. Mr Felipe Massa, I salute you, sir.
The start of the race was .. well, a typical start. A lot of cars funneling into turn one, and as expected, some made contact with others. Personally, I've never raced in Formula One, so my experiences come from my sim racing. All I can say is that of all places, turn one is the most frantic and frenetic place to be. No driver wants to make any contact in turn one, neither do they want to give ground. It is, after all, racing. So when decisions are being made with many other cars around you, everyone trying to estimate and guess where a car will or not will be at any given moment, s--t happens and sometimes we see collisions. To assign blame to anyone at this period of the race is premature and idealistic, because it really is a crap shoot.
But because of a coming-together at the start, Alonso got turned around, and Schumacher had his front wing damaged. So Michael had to pit, and this put him at the back of the pack. Then, when the frantic action on lap nine happend when almost everyone poured into the pits to change from wets to slicks, Schumacher ran into serious trouble again. Rosberg had pitted and cleared the pits by the time Schumacher came into the pits. But the left front slick was still wrapped in it's heating blanket, and it took at least five seconds before the team could get the blanket off the tire, and mounted in the car. Of course, that put Michael at the back of the pack, again. Hey, sometimes no matter how good you or your car is, you can have a crappy day no fault of the driver. Later in the race Michal Schumacher had a real good battle with Alguersuari, and I bet both of them had a great time. They didn't think they were in any battle for points, they were just racing each other. Good stuff, and I'm sure Michael and Jamie have a starting point for some respect and friendship.
Alonso was incredible, he went from last to finish fourth. Mention of honor.
Now, let's talk about the four bottom teams (Virgin, HRT, Sauber, and Lotus). The only driver in this group to finish both races is Kovalainen. Chandhok and Pedro de la Rosa managed to finish for their teams in Australia. Virgin are 0 for 4, HRT are 1 for 4, Sauber 1 for 4, and Lotus are 2 for 4.
There's been a ton of talk about the collision involving Webber and Hamilton. Twenty laps before it even happened I was sure that some form of fireworks was in the making. Hamilton was 2 seconds quicker than Alonso and gaining, with Webber stalking him and waiting for any opportunity to pounce. I doubt if we will ever see Alonso pull over and make life easy for Hamilton, so it was developing into something....
Eventually Hamilton closed the gap, and then tried a pass. He went to Alonso's left. looked like he was going to fight him all the way through the corner, but instead tried to tuck in behind Alonso. But of course, Webber was headed that way, and they came together. I consider this a racing incident, where yes, Webber was technically at fault. But it's racing, he was in a position to capitalize on a developing fight between two combative individuals in front of him. Sometimes a driver sees a gap open up and make a spectacular pass. But this time, the gap opened up just a hair, closed again, and Webber was the villain. He never intended it, but it was just a racing incident. I can live with it, and not lose any sleep over this incident.
But there are two things I am definitely not comfortable with. When Lewis Hamilton passed Alonso early in the race, he came so close his front wing made contact with Alonso's right rear tire, so much the wing went through a series of violent oscillations, which resulted in a part detaching itself. But his wing held on. But other cars and teams have front wings that are coming off much too easily, and one incident resulted in a very nasty crash on lap one. The FIA needs to address this today, and make sure that when the next race comes up in Malaysia, we will no longer have this serious safety issue around.
Secondly, the mirrors aren't working as advertised. Mirrors are there purely as a safety device, to allow the pilots to have a better understanding of what's going on behind them, and around them. Pedro de la Rosa was slapped on the wrist for one blocking incident, and he blames it part on his poor visibility. And when Hamilton turned in behind Alonso, he had no idea Webber was on the inside. So I believe the entire mirror regulations need to be thrown out and a complete new set written, to guarantee that the mirrors work, and effectively. Make sure they are in front of the driver, well within his range of periphal vision. Make the mirrors larger, and make sure they have less obstruction to the rear. Either address this issue, or throw the mirrors out, they are practically useless right now, with the way the regulations are written, and how the teams intrerpet them.
There's a few fanboys who claim Hamilton was definitely the best driver in Australia. That's your opinion, but it sort of comes up limp and feeble when you examine the simple fact that Lewis Hamilton's teammate, in an identical car, won the race, while Hamilton finished behind him. Excuses and what-ifs are only that, and cannot compare to the fact that in racing, the only thing that matters is how they crossed the finish line.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.
DaveKillens wrote:There's a few fanboys who claim Hamilton was definitely the best driver in Australia. That's your opinion, but it sort of comes up limp and feeble when you examine the simple fact that Lewis Hamilton's teammate, in an identical car, won the race, while Hamilton finished behind him. Excuses and what-ifs are only that, and cannot compare to the fact that in racing, the only thing that matters is how they crossed the finish line.
You want us to believe then that you give credit to Alonso who still finished behind his teammate with an also identical car?Hamilton did preety much the same thing if u ask me,except starting from last but making 2 pitstops and more crucial overtakes than Alonso.
What an absolutely nonsense closing chapter to a rather boring and never-ending speech
DaveKillens wrote:It's amazing how much the fanboys have hijacked this thread. If it isn't about Hamilton, or Schumacher, or Alonso then they just have nothing to say.
The Melbourne race definitely had it's share of thrills and spills. The weather really stirred the cocktail, and gave us the fans something that definitely was not boring.
Congratulations to all three who found their way to the podium. Jenson Button, you kept your cool, made the right decisions at the right times and used your personal strengths to win. You were the best driver. Robert Kubica has proven what every Formula One insider already knows, that he's darn good. It was practically a flawless race for him, he was very aggressive when it mattered, yet brought the car home in a very well-deserved second. And Felipe Massa, the missing man. Missing because in this thread, no one has seriously talked about Massa. Felipe has retured from what could have been a career-ending injury, not only to retain his seat at Ferrari, but do what no one else has done so far this year. Two races so far, and Massa is the only man to be on the podium both times. Mr Felipe Massa, I salute you, sir.
The start of the race was .. well, a typical start. A lot of cars funneling into turn one, and as expected, some made contact with others. Personally, I've never raced in Formula One, so my experiences come from my sim racing. All I can say is that of all places, turn one is the most frantic and frenetic place to be. No driver wants to make any contact in turn one, neither do they want to give ground. It is, after all, racing. So when decisions are being made with many other cars around you, everyone trying to estimate and guess where a car will or not will be at any given moment, s--t happens and sometimes we see collisions. To assign blame to anyone at this period of the race is premature and idealistic, because it really is a crap shoot.
But because of a coming-together at the start, Alonso got turned around, and Schumacher had his front wing damaged. So Michael had to pit, and this put him at the back of the pack. Then, when the frantic action on lap nine happend when almost everyone poured into the pits to change from wets to slicks, Schumacher ran into serious trouble again. Rosberg had pitted and cleared the pits by the time Schumacher came into the pits. But the left front slick was still wrapped in it's heating blanket, and it took at least five seconds before the team could get the blanket off the tire, and mounted in the car. Of course, that put Michael at the back of the pack, again. Hey, sometimes no matter how good you or your car is, you can have a crappy day no fault of the driver. Later in the race Michal Schumacher had a real good battle with Alguersuari, and I bet both of them had a great time. They didn't think they were in any battle for points, they were just racing each other. Good stuff, and I'm sure Michael and Jamie have a starting point for some respect and friendship.
Alonso was incredible, he went from last to finish fourth. Mention of honor.
Now, let's talk about the four bottom teams (Virgin, HRT, Sauber, and Lotus). The only driver in this group to finish both races is Kovalainen. Chandhok and Pedro de la Rosa managed to finish for their teams in Australia. Virgin are 0 for 4, HRT are 1 for 4, Sauber 1 for 4, and Lotus are 2 for 4.
There's been a ton of talk about the collision involving Webber and Hamilton. Twenty laps before it even happened I was sure that some form of fireworks was in the making. Hamilton was 2 seconds quicker than Alonso and gaining, with Webber stalking him and waiting for any opportunity to pounce. I doubt if we will ever see Alonso pull over and make life easy for Hamilton, so it was developing into something....
Eventually Hamilton closed the gap, and then tried a pass. He went to Alonso's left. looked like he was going to fight him all the way through the corner, but instead tried to tuck in behind Alonso. But of course, Webber was headed that way, and they came together. I consider this a racing incident, where yes, Webber was technically at fault. But it's racing, he was in a position to capitalize on a developing fight between two combative individuals in front of him. Sometimes a driver sees a gap open up and make a spectacular pass. But this time, the gap opened up just a hair, closed again, and Webber was the villain. He never intended it, but it was just a racing incident. I can live with it, and not lose any sleep over this incident.
But there are two things I am definitely not comfortable with. When Lewis Hamilton passed Alonso early in the race, he came so close his front wing made contact with Alonso's right rear tire, so much the wing went through a series of violent oscillations, which resulted in a part detaching itself. But his wing held on. But other cars and teams have front wings that are coming off much too easily, and one incident resulted in a very nasty crash on lap one. The FIA needs to address this today, and make sure that when the next race comes up in Malaysia, we will no longer have this serious safety issue around.
Secondly, the mirrors aren't working as advertised. Mirrors are there purely as a safety device, to allow the pilots to have a better understanding of what's going on behind them, and around them. Pedro de la Rosa was slapped on the wrist for one blocking incident, and he blames it part on his poor visibility. And when Hamilton turned in behind Alonso, he had no idea Webber was on the inside. So I believe the entire mirror regulations need to be thrown out and a complete new set written, to guarantee that the mirrors work, and effectively. Make sure they are in front of the driver, well within his range of periphal vision. Make the mirrors larger, and make sure they have less obstruction to the rear. Either address this issue, or throw the mirrors out, they are practically useless right now, with the way the regulations are written, and how the teams intrerpet them.
There's a few fanboys who claim Hamilton was definitely the best driver in Australia. That's your opinion, but it sort of comes up limp and feeble when you examine the simple fact that Lewis Hamilton's teammate, in an identical car, won the race, while Hamilton finished behind him. Excuses and what-ifs are only that, and cannot compare to the fact that in racing, the only thing that matters is how they crossed the finish line.
Epic contribution Dave! I thoroughly enjoyed reading your well grounded take!
I can't say that I take exception to any of it
I think That Ferrari maybe owe their positive results, and need to give credit to the engineers
that included in preseason testing an almost maniacal program of long runs on soft’s.
It easy to say they used the only strategy that they left themselves with.
But they had data to back up the strategy that maximized their results.
DaveKillens wrote:It's amazing how much the fanboys have hijacked this thread. If it isn't about Hamilton, or Schumacher, or Alonso then they just have nothing to say.
The Melbourne race definitely had it's share of thrills and spills. The weather really stirred the cocktail, and gave us the fans something that definitely was not boring.
Congratulations to all three who found their way to the podium. Jenson Button, you kept your cool, made the right decisions at the right times and used your personal strengths to win. You were the best driver. Robert Kubica has proven what every Formula One insider already knows, that he's darn good. It was practically a flawless race for him, he was very aggressive when it mattered, yet brought the car home in a very well-deserved second. And Felipe Massa, the missing man. Missing because in this thread, no one has seriously talked about Massa. Felipe has retured from what could have been a career-ending injury, not only to retain his seat at Ferrari, but do what no one else has done so far this year. Two races so far, and Massa is the only man to be on the podium both times. Mr Felipe Massa, I salute you, sir.
The start of the race was .. well, a typical start. A lot of cars funneling into turn one, and as expected, some made contact with others. Personally, I've never raced in Formula One, so my experiences come from my sim racing. All I can say is that of all places, turn one is the most frantic and frenetic place to be. No driver wants to make any contact in turn one, neither do they want to give ground. It is, after all, racing. So when decisions are being made with many other cars around you, everyone trying to estimate and guess where a car will or not will be at any given moment, s--t happens and sometimes we see collisions. To assign blame to anyone at this period of the race is premature and idealistic, because it really is a crap shoot.
But because of a coming-together at the start, Alonso got turned around, and Schumacher had his front wing damaged. So Michael had to pit, and this put him at the back of the pack. Then, when the frantic action on lap nine happend when almost everyone poured into the pits to change from wets to slicks, Schumacher ran into serious trouble again. Rosberg had pitted and cleared the pits by the time Schumacher came into the pits. But the left front slick was still wrapped in it's heating blanket, and it took at least five seconds before the team could get the blanket off the tire, and mounted in the car. Of course, that put Michael at the back of the pack, again. Hey, sometimes no matter how good you or your car is, you can have a crappy day no fault of the driver. Later in the race Michal Schumacher had a real good battle with Alguersuari, and I bet both of them had a great time. They didn't think they were in any battle for points, they were just racing each other. Good stuff, and I'm sure Michael and Jamie have a starting point for some respect and friendship.
Alonso was incredible, he went from last to finish fourth. Mention of honor.
Now, let's talk about the four bottom teams (Virgin, HRT, Sauber, and Lotus). The only driver in this group to finish both races is Kovalainen. Chandhok and Pedro de la Rosa managed to finish for their teams in Australia. Virgin are 0 for 4, HRT are 1 for 4, Sauber 1 for 4, and Lotus are 2 for 4.
There's been a ton of talk about the collision involving Webber and Hamilton. Twenty laps before it even happened I was sure that some form of fireworks was in the making. Hamilton was 2 seconds quicker than Alonso and gaining, with Webber stalking him and waiting for any opportunity to pounce. I doubt if we will ever see Alonso pull over and make life easy for Hamilton, so it was developing into something....
Eventually Hamilton closed the gap, and then tried a pass. He went to Alonso's left. looked like he was going to fight him all the way through the corner, but instead tried to tuck in behind Alonso. But of course, Webber was headed that way, and they came together. I consider this a racing incident, where yes, Webber was technically at fault. But it's racing, he was in a position to capitalize on a developing fight between two combative individuals in front of him. Sometimes a driver sees a gap open up and make a spectacular pass. But this time, the gap opened up just a hair, closed again, and Webber was the villain. He never intended it, but it was just a racing incident. I can live with it, and not lose any sleep over this incident.
But there are two things I am definitely not comfortable with. When Lewis Hamilton passed Alonso early in the race, he came so close his front wing made contact with Alonso's right rear tire, so much the wing went through a series of violent oscillations, which resulted in a part detaching itself. But his wing held on. But other cars and teams have front wings that are coming off much too easily, and one incident resulted in a very nasty crash on lap one. The FIA needs to address this today, and make sure that when the next race comes up in Malaysia, we will no longer have this serious safety issue around.
Secondly, the mirrors aren't working as advertised. Mirrors are there purely as a safety device, to allow the pilots to have a better understanding of what's going on behind them, and around them. Pedro de la Rosa was slapped on the wrist for one blocking incident, and he blames it part on his poor visibility. And when Hamilton turned in behind Alonso, he had no idea Webber was on the inside. So I believe the entire mirror regulations need to be thrown out and a complete new set written, to guarantee that the mirrors work, and effectively. Make sure they are in front of the driver, well within his range of periphal vision. Make the mirrors larger, and make sure they have less obstruction to the rear. Either address this issue, or throw the mirrors out, they are practically useless right now, with the way the regulations are written, and how the teams intrerpet them.
There's a few fanboys who claim Hamilton was definitely the best driver in Australia. That's your opinion, but it sort of comes up limp and feeble when you examine the simple fact that Lewis Hamilton's teammate, in an identical car, won the race, while Hamilton finished behind him. Excuses and what-ifs are only that, and cannot compare to the fact that in racing, the only thing that matters is how they crossed the finish line.
I notice you made no mention of most of the race, involving a certain driver.
Ok then take Hamilton out of the race and see what you got. Also consider where the cameras were 60% of the time (no exaggeration). You'd have lost 60% of you entertainment, or even more.
Driver of the race goes to the most mememorable drive. This win is one of many in Formula1, it's the drives that stick.
We have had many races where yes the podium finish counts, but the racing in between has been lacking. Some prefer the close racing since there will be 19 tracks for any driver to be on podium; this is a given thing. I rather see a driver entertain the crowd today then crash out then come back next week then win. Entertainment is not guaranteed and should be cherished when it comes along.
ringo wrote:I notice you made no mention of most of the race, involving a certain driver.
Ok then take Hamilton out of the race and see what you got. Also consider where the cameras were 60% of the time (no exaggeration). You'd have lost 60% of you entertainment, or even more.
Driver of the race goes to the most mememorable drive. This win is one of many in Formula1, it's the drives that stick.
We have had many races where yes the podium finish counts, but the racing in between has been lacking. Some prefer the close racing since there will be 19 tracks for any driver to be on podium; this is a given thing. I rather see a driver entertain the crowd today then crash out then come back next week then win. Entertainment is not guaranteed and should be cherished when it comes along.
Yes, I deliberately left out mentioning Vettel. Without a doubt, he is the quickest man in the quickest car. What can be said? Everyone knows he owned pole, was comfortably in the lead, and but for some mechanical problem, most likely would have won the race(s). So far, his personal performances have been letter-perfect.
It's amusing, but earlier this morning I watched the IRL race, and Danica Patrick captured a LOT of camera time. I guess by your logic, I have to admit she was the best and definitely the stellar driver on the track. Let's not go into the fact she qualified waaaay back (21st), and her highest position was 6th after Franchitti handily passed her near the end. But she got at least 60% of the camera time, so she must have been not only the best driver, but a stunning, exciting, and memorable performance.
And when you mention Lewis Hamilton's drive on Sunday, yes, it was memorable. I will never forget the whining and bitching he did about the extra pit stop. I do have to admit that was incredibly funny and entertaining. Now that, I won't forget.
In summation, Jenson Button won, not Hamilton.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.
