Monaco GP 2010 - Monte Carlo

[WhiteBlue]

The more I think about this thing the more I get concerned with with the possibility that Ross Brawn never fully appreciated the meaning of the yellow and the green flag according to § 2.4.5.1 of the appendix H of the Internatinal Sporting Code.

I posted the appendix to the ISC some pages ago. viewtopic.php?p=170246#p170246
It basically inhibits racing when the yellow flag is shown. Contrary to what I have thought it actually never says in the ISC that the green flag means overtaking and racing is allowed. It only says that the track is clear. Clear track is a necessary condition to passing but it is not logically a sufficient condition in a mathematical or legal sense to racing and passing.

That is actually consistent with the practise of race starts. They show the green flag before the race is started but the actual race start is done by the red lights going out.

This could mean that there is no contradiction between 40.13 and the the green lights. It is against what I feel is right but that is what the appendix says. Under normal safety car conditions the race is not restarted by the green flags but by the safety car diving into the pits. In the last lap the rule is different according to 40.13. It is shitty but Brawn could have given wrong advise to Schumi there.

On the last lap, we therefore advised our drivers that they should race to the line and Michael made his move on Fernando for sixth place.

Michael had good and bad advise from his team before. Silverstone 1994 was bad but 1998 was good. 94 Briatore told him to disregard the black flag but in 98 Brawn found the trick to cross the finish line in the pit lane.

It will be interesting to see how the ICA decides the appeal.

[Mr. K]

To be honest the 20 sec penalty is prob a bit much. Shoulda just bumped MS back down to 7th.

I think thaT IS THE ONLY POINT THAT people who agree and disagree with the penalty can/would agree upon... but it has been noted that there is no such provision in the rules... if he is guilty than that must be the punishment...

but wasnt it 25 seconds for Hamilton in Spa, is a drive thru in Monaco that much shorther than in Spa? is the pit speed different for the 2 venues?

the rules have been updated this season and 20 seconds will be issued when for an incident that would have resulted in a drive through. alternatively there is a 30 second penalty for when they would have issued a 10 second penalty.

[Paul]

One thing everyone can agree on I think is that the procedure for ending the race under SC is unclear. From it come different interpretations- Brawn decided it was a chance for a last gasp attack, while McLaren for example played it safe telling Lewis that overtaking was forbidden. I think fairest way would be for race officials to admit they screwed up both in writing the rule and implementing it and just remove the last lap from the classification.

[Miguel]

To be honest the 20 sec penalty is prob a bit much. Shoulda just bumped MS back down to 7th.

20 seconds is indeed way too much. Buemi is probably the only person that doesn't think so. However, the rules are clear. The penalty for overtaking under safety car has always been a drive through and... well... 20 seconds is exactly what a drive through is if it is "awarded" in the last five laps. Relegating him to seventh would have been the equivalent of putting a new regulation ouf of their hats just for Schumacher.

[djos]

The fault lies entirely with the stewards/race control - had they not switched the green lights/flags on and instead left the yellow lights going this would never have happened!!!!

[komninosm]

The fault lies entirely with the stewards/race control - had they not switched the green lights/flags on and instead left the yellow lights going this would never have happened!!!!

Reminds me of what some people were saying a previous year about the Trulli-Hamilton thing. They said the fault was the race control's because McLaren asked them repeatedly whether to pass Trulli again and they didn't respond till the end of the race. Other people then claimed the team (McLaren) was responsible for knowing the rules (and interpreting them as "divine inspiration") and it was not race control's fault. But now it's not the same with Schumacher and Brawn I guess for them...

[marcush.]

If the race ends under Safety car ,there is no need to announce the safety car will go in ...as this is mandatory under the rules!
If the race ends under Safety car rules ,Yellow flags +SC signs are shown till the Checkered flag.
This all contradicts to what has been done.
They declared Safety car will be in this lap ,and green flags were shown .instead of yellows and SC sign.
It was a signalling error and effectively nowhere there is a mention of the distance
from Safety car line and Finish line is especially catered for in a last lap SC.
It is clearly said overtaking is allowed from safety car line 1 .The race did not end under SC .that is fact,even if the raceofficials intended to do so ,they failed to put out the correct signalling. you cannot fine Schumacher or MERC for this .

[Richard]

they failed to put out the correct signalling. you cannot fine Schumacher or MERC for this .

+1

Since this was due to teh marshalling error (green flag) and unclear rules, I was expecting the places to be swapped back.

I hoee the marshall guide book is being swiftly updated to say the SC and yellows have to be left showing to the end of the race.

[vall]

what else does it mean then? Why is this rule there? For me it is obvious.

I'm afraid saying "What else does it mean?" and "It is obvious" is not how the world works. The world is based on clear and accurate communication, especially when it comes to rules and regulations. When many rules and regulations are legally accountable that is especially so.

I hope the Brawn-Shummy trick will not work this time. It worked too much in the past.

What may or may not have happened in the past has no bearing here. You've just discredited yourself.

... by telling the truth [-X

[vall]

they failed to put out the correct signalling. you cannot fine Schumacher or MERC for this .

I hoee the marshall guide book is being swiftly updated to say the SC and yellows have to be left showing to the end of the race.

yes, this should probably be done. But nowhere in the current regs is written that a signal "race ending under safety car" should be given and that the yellows should stay until the end. Instead it is clear that in there is a safety car during the last lap, this means the "race ending under safety car".

[marcush.]

yes, this should probably be done. But nowhere in the current regs is written that a signal "race ending under safety car" should be given and that the yellows should stay until the end. Instead it is clear that in there is a safety car during the last lap, this means the "race ending under safety car".

You are interpreting the rule here.
Last year it was obvious you could not even think about a green flag situation ,as you were NOT allowed to overtake before the finish line.So in fact the regs were very clear in last lap pace cars .
But now they opened this zone between SC line 1 and finish line + wrong signalling.
If I know correctly EVERY signal post has to show yellow flag and SC sign when the re is a safety car period.
Well ,THEY chose to announce the SC car to be in that lap -which was unecessary if the race was to be ended under SC conditions :it had to go in anyways.
And they showed green instead of Yellow +SC .I can´t see the ground for discussion let alone a penalty.

[nipo]

Correct me if I am wrong - in normal cases, when SC comes in, is it only after the start-finish line that people are allowed to overtake?

[vall]

yes, this should probably be done. But nowhere in the current regs is written that a signal "race ending under safety car" should be given and that the yellows should stay until the end. Instead it is clear that in there is a safety car during the last lap, this means the "race ending under safety car".

You are interpreting the rule here.
Last year it was obvious you could not even think about a green flag situation ,as you were NOT allowed to overtake before the finish line.So in fact the regs were very clear in last lap pace cars .
But now they opened this zone between SCline 1 and finish line + wrong signalling.
If I know correctly EVERY siganl post has to show yellow flag and SC sign when hte ere is a safety car period.
Well ,THEY chose to annonce the SC car to be in that lap -wich was unecessary if the race was to be ended under SC conditions it had to go in anyways.
And they showed green instead of Yellow +SC .I can´t see the ground for discussion let alone a penalty.

if the rules do not explicitly state that the "race will finish under SC" signal should be given (+ yellows+SC signs) and there is rule 40.13 which clearly says "safety car during the last lap = race finishing under safety car", then is becomes clear that Monaco 2010 did finish under SC condition.

[autogyro]

Surely the race did not end under SC, because the SC came in before the end of the race.
SC in and green flags AND green lights usualy means, race on.
However, if the rules state that if the last lap of the race is under safety car, then there can be no overtaking, then that is a different matter.
In this case the stewards and marshals were wrong in how the race was run, because the flags and lights should have remained yellow and the safety car should have continued over the finish line to end the race.

[segedunum]

...and there is rule 40.13 which clearly says "safety car during the last lap = race finishing under safety car"

40.13 does not say that at all and it is anything but clear. You might wish to high heaven that it does, but it doesn't and I'm afraid it won't get any more true the more times you repeat it. The relevant passages have been repeated often enough.