Monaco GP 2010 - Monte Carlo

[Remote_Access]

This argument has been carrying on for 20-something pages now and it all comes down to one person's interpretation against another.

The whole point is that there are multiple interpretations. That is the problem and clearly the drivers, flag marshalls, stewards and fans all had differing takes on what the rule meant. Unfortunately for Michael and the marshalls they had to make their calls in the heat of the moment; the stewards and us armchair experts have all the time in the world.

Point is: Schumacher copped a harsh penalty and the rule needs to be clarified.

[mbvinnie]

Very confusing rule, and badly written.
However I don;t think it is just interpretation, my opinion is that the Schumacher should NOT have been penalised.

The rule states that IF the race finishes under SC deployment, you can not pass.
So we have to look at if the race actually finished with the safety car deployed or not. Which means we need to examine under what circumstances the SC came into the pits.

My understanding is that the safety car will come into the pits on the last lap in one of two different conditions:
a) the race is finishing under safety car conditions (still danger present).
b) the track is clear and safe, and the safety car is coming in as racing can safely continue (even if it is the last lap).

This is where the confusion arises.
If a) was true and the safety car was still deployed but was entering the pits, I would expect the SC boards and yellow flags to still be out
If b) was true then the safety car was no longer deployed and I would expect the SC boards to be withdrawn and the green flags waved.

Note: the rule states if the race finishes under the safety car, the SC will come into the pits and no passing is allowed. However it does not state that if the SC comes into the pits on the last lap that the race is definitely finishing under the safety car, it just states it is a possibility.

To clarify and reword:
At no point does it state that if the SC pits on the last lap, that the race is still under SC conditions. It only states that if the race finishes under SC conditions the SC will pit, which is quite different...it does not exclude the possibility of the SC pitting for other reasons.
A subtle point, but one that makes all the difference in this case.

The confusing factors in this case are:
-that the SC line and the start/finish are no longer the same
-that the track appeared to be cleared for racing exactly on the last lap.
-they did not clarify why the SC was "coming in this lap" (track was now clear, or race finishing under SC).

Conclusion: The announcement to the teams, the withdrawal of the SC boards and the green flags together indicate that the SC was actually withdrawn before the end of the race, so the race was NOT to be completed with the SC deployed, and therefore passing between SC line and finish line should have been allowed.

[ecapox]

Surely the race did not end under SC, because the SC came in before the end of the race.
SC in and green flags AND green lights usualy means, race on.
However, if the rules state that if the last lap of the race is under safety car, then there can be no overtaking, then that is a different matter.
In this case the stewards and marshals were wrong in how the race was run, because the flags and lights should have remained yellow and the safety car should have continued over the finish line to end the race.

It is a little wonky about the flags and lights. I do hope that is revised. But we can agree on a few things.

1. SC NEVER passes the checkered flag. It always pulls in before that.
2. The SC lead the last lap of the race.

So if the safety car led the last lap, it is clearly written in 40.13 "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

The flags and lights are srange. I'll give you that, and i believe it was an honest misunderstanding by Schumacher. I believe they will take back their 20sec penalty and place him at 7th instead of 6th. No harm, no foul.

[mep]

That’s such a bad judgment, when the safety car is in you are clear to race point.
When they don’t want that somebody overtakes they should let the SC out. They just did it because they don't want to finish a race behind the SC but then they have to live with the fact that somebody overtakes.
By the way it was a brilliant maneuver.

[A13EX_f]

whilst i'm not schumacker's biggest fan i did smile when he did that manoeuvre i thought it was a little bit of playback for alonso to be outsmarted after he did the dirty to schumacker's friend massa on the pit entry a few races ago!

if the rules were broken then he should just be put back to 7th and the rules cleared up for everyone.

[segedunum]

So if the safety car led the last lap, it is clearly written in 40.13 "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

You highlighted the wrong part:

"If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed"

The race hadn't ended and the safety car wasn't deployed. What that actually means or what people think that means, or even whether that is actually possible, is neither here not there. I suspect this was written when you couldn't overtake before the start/finish line, but, whatever.

The part you've highlighted in bold is entirely dependant on that because there is an 'if' involved. If the former is false then the latter cannot logically apply.

[Just_a_fan]

Why is everybody missing the fact that Webber drove an awesome race in an awesome car to win the most important event on the callender?
The bickerings of all these past world champions should be of little importance, they should all get their teams to build cars that work properly.

I'm no Webbo fan myself, but it's a shame isn't it? Brazil last year too. Nobody noticed that he had won the bloody thing.

I think all the Webbo doubters are in denial and have found a controversy to latch onto to avoid admitting that Webbo is a/on fire and b/now dominating his very quick and high quality team mate.

Nah, some of us were too busy listening to the cricket instead...

[segedunum]

This argument has been carrying on for 20-something pages now and it all comes down to one person's interpretation against another.

There is no interpretation. 40.13 cannot logically apply and it says nothing of what some people think it says. They created a loophole when they moved the right to overtake to a safaety car line further back from the start/finish line. It's as simple as that.

[mbvinnie]

Surely the race did not end under SC, because the SC came in before the end of the race.
SC in and green flags AND green lights usualy means, race on.
However, if the rules state that if the last lap of the race is under safety car, then there can be no overtaking, then that is a different matter.
In this case the stewards and marshals were wrong in how the race was run, because the flags and lights should have remained yellow and the safety car should have continued over the finish line to end the race.

It is a little wonky about the flags and lights. I do hope that is revised. But we can agree on a few things.

1. SC NEVER passes the checkered flag. It always pulls in before that.
2. The SC lead the last lap of the race.

So if the safety car led the last lap, it is clearly written in 40.13 "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

The flags and lights are srange. I'll give you that, and i believe it was an honest misunderstanding by Schumacher. I believe they will take back their 20sec penalty and place him at 7th instead of 6th. No harm, no foul.

As mentioned before, the SC leading the last lap does not mean the race will finish under the safety car.
You have not stated why you think the SC definitely came in because the race was finishing under SC (Ferrari's understanding), and not because the SC was actually being pulled in because the race was restarting (the Mercedes interpretation).
I think the flags/SC boards etc indicate the latter.

[ggajic]

According to rules, race can not end with SC passing finish line first, it means that car leading the pack must past over finish line first, not SC. But all mess we have here is newly introduced SC line. Schumacher passed Alonso after SC line and before start-finish line with green lights on. If lights remained yellow that would be case for penalty. But with green lights on and so ill-written rules, last 200-300m are legitimate piece of race track for racing. After all if Alonso and Ferrari team were so sure about rule: why they did not also allow Nico to pass?

[segedunum]

On the subject of Webber, it shows what short memories some people have. Yes, we all know he has purple patches of being fast and he had brilliant performances at the Nurburgring and Interlagos last season but until his win at Interlagos Lewis Hamilton and Kimi Raikkonen were uncomfortably close to him in the championship in cars that simply were nowhere near the Red Bull. I also watched his seasons in Formula 3000, the latter when he was competing against Justin Wilson, and was soundly beaten.

In every case that Mark Webber has tried to pull himself up to compete with the best and looked like the real deal he has fallen short. I refuse to judge him at the age of 33 and forget everything else on the basis of two races in a car that, frankly, should be walking away with races.

[ggajic]

40.13 If the race ends while the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

But this does not say that flags and racing conditions should go from yellow to green which has happened from SC line to finish line.

[WhiteBlue]

Surely the race did not end under SC, because the SC came in before the end of the race.
SC in and green flags AND green lights usualy means, race on.
However, if the rules state that if the last lap of the race is under safety car, then there can be no overtaking, then that is a different matter.
In this case the stewards and marshals were wrong in how the race was run, because the flags and lights should have remained yellow and the safety car should have continued over the finish line to end the race.

That would be a popular assumption. I was making the same. Fact of the matter is that the green flags and lights only indicate that the track is now clear of the danger which was previously indicated by the yellow flags and lights. A green signal does not authorize racing! It is a necessary condition for the race to resume but it is not a sufficient condition.

There is some logic in switching the green lights on and still prohibiting the racing. The drivers are informed that they can go back to full speed safely. The safety car is removed from the finish line photography and the drivers are told by § 40.13 to keep the track position they had behind the safety car. It makes some sense to a lawyer but the net effect to the public is confusion and a lack of transparency.

[Remote_Access]

This argument has been carrying on for 20-something pages now and it all comes down to one person's interpretation against another.

There is no interpretation. 40.13 cannot logically apply and it says nothing of what some people think it says. They created a loophole when they moved the right to overtake to a safaety car line further back from the start/finish line. It's as simple as that.

Damn seg, even when I back you up you find a way to be an argumentative moron. The only thing not logically applicable is the statement "There is no interpretation" given the hundreds of posts clearly discussing disagreements of interpretation.

[autogyro]

On the subject of Webber, it shows what short memories some people have. Yes, we all know he has purple patches of being fast and he had brilliant performances at the Nurburgring and Interlagos last season but until his win at Interlagos Lewis Hamilton and Kimi Raikkonen were uncomfortably close to him in the championship in cars that simply were nowhere near the Red Bull. I also watched his seasons in Formula 3000, the latter when he was competing against Justin Wilson, and was soundly beaten.

In every case that Mark Webber has tried to pull himself up to compete with the best and looked like the real deal he has fallen short. I refuse to judge him at the age of 33 and forget everything else on the basis of two races in a car that, frankly, should be walking away with races.

Hmm, I called Webber a jobber driver a short while ago and I was pleased to be proven wrong. He is up there with the top drivers that is obvious but a difficult call if you were employing him. Lets wait and see.
I have an Aussie race driver friend coming to the UK at the end of this Month and I dont want to fall out with him.