Monaco GP 2010 - Monte Carlo

[mep]

So far I think we can all agree that Schumacher should not have passed Alonso as it was on the final lap.

Sorry but I can't agree on this point.

Anyway I don't want to discuss it to much because most of the things are said.
I just wonder about last WTCC race where we had a similar situation.
On both WTCC races we had SC until the end and then a race for the last meters until finish line.
Does anybody remember the race or have video where somebody overtakes on these few meters?
It would be interesting to see if the judges made other decisions there with the same regulations made by FIA.

[andrew]

So far I think we can all agree that Schumacher should not have passed Alonso as it was on the final lap.

Sorry but I can't agree on this point.

Disagree with facts all you like. I am a Schuacher fan and think it is ridiculous but these are the mickey mouse regs.

[piast9]

I am not Shumacher's fan but I don't like these regulations. Maybe they make sense for a lawyer, for average person like driver or spectator they don't. Frankly speaking the 40.13 rule is nonsense because it says that if race ends with SC it actually doesn't end like so because SC pulls in before the end of the last lap.

It should be something like that: if the SC is present at the last lap it pulls in to the pits, yellow flags and SC signs are kept out. You don't even have to add that no racing nor overtaking is permitted because it is obvious. Rule is clear and everyone know what to do.

[Richard]

to so many previous posts

Rule 40.4 - the duration of the safety car deployment is indicated by the lights/flags and SC board.

The green flags were shown on the last lap. That means the duration of safety car deployment ended on the last lap. If the duration of the safety car deployment extended to the end of the race then the lights/flags and SC boards would have remained in place until the cars cross the finish line.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

if the safety car pulls of on the final lap, no one can pass anyone. The race ended as soon as the safety car came out, not when Webber passed the line.

So far I think we can all agree that Schumacher should not have passed Alonso as it was on the final lap.

The problem is that green flags/lights were clearly shown giving the go ahead to race.

Rule 40.4 - the duration of the safety car deployment is indicated by the lights/flags and SC board.

As you correctly say, the green flags were shown on the last lap, so the duration of safety car deployment ended on the last lap. If the duration of the safety car deployment extended to the end of the race then the lights/flags and SC boards would have remained in place until the cars cross the finish line.

Which all leads to the question why Schumacher was penalised? WHY WHY WHY?
If its clear to the whole world and his dog that there were green flags waving. why would you penalise a driver for acting on what the marshalls are indicating?

It set a dangerous precedent, when flags are obeyed the driver gets a 20 second penalty! If there is any common sense in the "new" FIA the move will either stand, OR Schumacher demoted 1 place. Because the highlight of the race was the move, along with Webbers performance.

[segedunum]

However as of this year, if the safety car pulls of on the final lap, no one can pass anyone. The race ended as soon as the safety car came out, not when Webber passed the line.

There is no rule anywhere that states that, that's the problem. 40.13 was supposed to be the rule that enforced this and it now seems as though Ferrari and the stewards have looked at it, privately thought "Oh ---, it means nothing!" and interpreted it in the way they first thought it should be anyway. This set of rules will now get quietly changed later so as no one admits that they didn't think through these rules and the 'safety car line' at all. That's what is galling.

When I see --- like this happening and Schumacher not getting penalised for blatantly blasting his way through red flags in Australia it totally discredits the governance of the sport completely, as if it needs to be damaged any more.

[komninosm]

You all may be interested to know that Hamilton was clearly told by McLaren not to race Massa, and Fernando was also told not to race Lewis. So it's not our interpretation that differs, but also teams that differ in the interpretation.

DAMN!
It would have been so hilarious if they leaked a sound clip of them telling Alonso (and others) to fight for position at restart. Deja vu of the Hamilton-Trulli incident then...

[komninosm]

Button was out because of the aux fan still in the cooling duct.. but then it was lap 2 when it went baang... so why on earth didn´t they pull him in directly after the formation lap?

The commentry was saying that apparently he'd have had enough cooling at race speeds. Apparently Whitmarsh told Button they'd fix it at the next pit stop.

That would have been OK on a normal track, but in this instance he'd have been better to pull into the pits after the formation lap and follow Alonso.

Why did he not pit when the SC came out? Then he would have been ahead of Alonso probably.

[komninosm]

You all may be interested to know that Hamilton was clearly told by McLaren not to race Massa, and Fernando was also told not to race Lewis. So it's not our interpretation that differs, but also teams that differ in the interpretation.

Ha ha.... you think Lewis (or Fernando for that matter) would actually heed advice like that

Yes, they would. What you said was pretty disingenuous.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I thought Lewis was told to "watch his brakes".

[ggajic]

Race even did not end under SC, article 40.11 clearly explains why:

40.11 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car's orange lights will be extinguished This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.
In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.


Not to mention that article 40.13 can actually never be applied due to fact that race never end under SC. And even if they wanted to have clear rule that pulls SC into pits before finish line - they could simply say that once SC pulls in final lap - light remain yellow.. Green lights after SC entered pits is what kills article 40.13 be it right or wrong..

[komninosm]

It set a dangerous precedent, when flags are obeyed the driver gets a 20 second penalty! If there is any common sense in the "new" FIA the move will either stand, OR Schumacher demoted 1 place. Because the highlight of the race was the move, along with Webbers performance.

Oh come on .... It doesn't set a dangerous precedent that when flags are obeyed the driver gets a 20 second penalty. That's the worst exaggeration in the entire thread.
I agree with you that Schumacher should only be demoted 1 place at best (or none), but there are no rules to allow that. Only penalties available at their arsenal are drive-through and 10 sec stop. Something that I found out sadly a couple of years ago with the Hamilton-Trulli incident and it should have been changed then and there.

[komninosm]

I thought Lewis was told to "watch his brakes".

That was much earlier. What point are you trying to make? It's a bit confusing when you don't elaborate your thought (or at least quote someone).

[komninosm]

Not to mention that article 40.13 can actually never be applied due to fact that race never end under SC. And even if they wanted to have clear rule that pulls SC into pits before finish line - they could simply say that once SC pulls in final lap - light remain yellow.. Green lights after SC entered pits is what kills article 40.13 be it right or wrong..

Saying that 40.13 can actually never be applied is counter-productive to your argument. Obviously the creators of the rules included it for a reason, so it does apply in some instances. You should stick to attacking the green flags and stuff that created a confusion.
IMO the simple thing that would solve this would be for race control to add one more sentence to its communication. Either say "no overtaking allowed" or "overtaking allowed" and all the other crap they said. It's like they're trying to be as laconic as possible to win a poetry competition or some silly thing like that.

[Richard]

The commentry was saying that apparently he'd have had enough cooling at race speeds. Apparently Whitmarsh told Button they'd fix it at the next pit stop.

That would have been OK on a normal track, but in this instance he'd have been better to pull into the pits after the formation lap and follow Alonso.

Why did he not pit when the SC came out? Then he would have been ahead of Alonso probably.

He never got as far as the pits under the SC, he burnt out on the first safety car lap. His poor car had to endure standing still before the formation lap, then the formation lap, then more standing still on the grid, then one fast lap, then one SC lap.