Monaco GP 2010 - Monte Carlo

[andrew]

The problem is that green flags/lights were clearly shown giving the go ahead to race. In normal race conditions, once greens are shown the race is on. Schumacher is unfortunately on the wrong side of the regs however, the person that controls the signals appears to have messed up.

Many people believe this and I did as well. But it is not true. The meaning of the green flag is defined by appendix H of the international sporting code.

4.1.2 Flag signals to be used at observation posts:
f) Green flag: This should be used to indicate that the track is clear and should be waved at the observation post immediately after the incident that necessitated the use of one or more yellow flags.
-
It may also be used, if deemed necessary by the Clerk of the Course, to signal the start of a warm-up lap or the start of a practice session.

As you see here it only signals that the track is clear of dangers that were previously indicated by yellow flags. It is not a signal that allows racing per se. So based on that regulation drivers can safely increase their speed again. But if another rule forbids overtaking the green flag isn't actually contradicting that interdiction.

I think any appeal by Merc is doomed to fail. My main problem with this is the penalty which is effectivly a disqualification. Surely a more reasonable stance would be for Schumacher to go down a place?

[Richard]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 129072.ece

Damon Hill getting hate mail after his ruling it seems.

The curse of a fading empire. The UK press are obsessed with the battles of yesterday.

[Richard]

FACTS mate

Indeed. Seldom appreciated in life, never appreciated in a forum.

[komninosm]

You use "never" erroneously. Green flags on this race's last lap may seem a bit conflicting with 40.13, but that does not mean that 40.13 can never be applied in other races. What 40.13 basically says (to the drivers) is that if there's still debris out on the last lap the SC will come in to the pits but you guys got to the finish line alone with no overtaking (as in don't be confused by lack of SC ahead of you, you're not allowed to overtake). It's pretty simple. The problem is that clearing a track can take many (SC) laps if it's a hard accident so if it happens 3 laps before the end it might need 5 laps to be cleaned (so never) or it might need 2 so it gets cleaned right on the last lap. That's the only situation that can be taken as confusing. Otherwise 40.13 is an easy rule to apply. It is patently not overridden in the majority of cases. There is only some ambiguity (according to some people) in a few cases. So your initial generalising statement was wrong. 40.13 is not "always" overridden, it only might be in this case.

Read 40.11 again. 40.13 is always overridden due to simple fact: there is no clear difference between SC in this lap and ending of race under SC. And if you add fact that SC line is now before S-F line it becomes clear why. Of course 40.13 would be easy to apply if idiot who wrote it for a second had a thought how it would look like in reality. This is exact reason why rules should be clear and why they should take into consideration every possible outcome.

Even if there was/is no difference between SC in this lap and ending the race under SC that doesn't mean 40.13 is always overridden. One might just as easily argue it is always applied.
If you want to take it a step further you might say 40.13 applies if yellow flags are still out after the SC pits in the last lap and it doesn't apply if the green flags come out. Though since such a clarification is lacking from the rules it is more apt to say 40.13 always applies. Your wishing it not to apply in any case does not make it so.

[Intego]

Mandatory fans on each side? A quarter or half the size of each radiator would be enough perhaps? They already do it for promotional events.

Fans are banned because people use them for things other than cooling. That's the F1 way

Standardize this:

Same source, obviously same photo set:

source
It seems to be last years RB5? Exhausts look like even earlier versions and the post date is before RB6 launch.

Since when fans are banned?

[segedunum]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 129072.ece

Damon Hill getting hate mail after his ruling it seems.

I'm not surprised. I think we all assumed that the drivers are there in an advisory role but it seems from what he's saying that he was thrown in at the deep end and had to try and interpret the various rules and regulations.

Incompetent governance once again.

[imightbewrong]

It seems to be last years RB5? Exhausts look like even earlier versions and the post date is before RB6 launch.

It is older than that, see the push rods.

[komninosm]

You can put as many question-marks as you want at the end of your rhetorical question. It won't change the fact that you're wrong.

Above you've committed the most basic logical fallacy there is - that there simply must be a reason for......something. Additionally, saying someone is wrong does not make them so I'm afraid because like every other Tom, Dick or Harry you never discuss the wording of 40.13. We merely get your interpretation of what you think was intended.

Whenever you get yourself on a thread it is a sign that it should be closed.

I committed no fallacy in that post because I made no argument. In the previous post my argument was not that all things have reason to exist, but that rules in rulebooks usually do, even if it is a bit arbitrary and imperfect. That's not the same thing. Also I did discuss the wording of 40.13 so stop spreading your falsehoods.
Thanks for the parting insult. Coming from the likes of you I consider it praise.

[Pedro]

Pit-stop summary



Source: F1news.cz
http://f1news.cz/novinky/34792-mercedes ... -v-boxech/

[komninosm]

The problem is that green flags/lights were clearly shown giving the go ahead to race. In normal race conditions, once greens are shown the race is on. Schumacher is unfortunately on the wrong side of the regs however, the person that controls the signals appears to have messed up.

Many people believe this and I did as well. But it is not true. The meaning of the green flag is defined by appendix H of the international sporting code.

4.1.2 Flag signals to be used at observation posts:
f) Green flag: This should be used to indicate that the track is clear and should be waved at the observation post immediately after the incident that necessitated the use of one or more yellow flags.
-
It may also be used, if deemed necessary by the Clerk of the Course, to signal the start of a warm-up lap or the start of a practice session.

As you see here it only signals that the track is clear of dangers that were previously indicated by yellow flags. It is not a signal that allows racing per se. So based on that regulation drivers can safely increase their speed again. But if another rule forbids overtaking the green flag isn't actually contradicting that interdiction.

Hmm I was leaning slightly towards Brawn/Schumacher being right, but your post kinda makes me lean the opposite way now. Still only slightly though in both cases. It is a confusing issue.
What I dislike is people shouting they have the right answer in this and being obnoxious about it.

[segedunum]

...

Also I did discuss the wording of 40.13 so stop spreading your falsehoods.

Once again, you don't back that up. Your meaningless posts are still based on an assumption of what 40.13 is supposed to mean, not what it actually says.

...

[vall]

You use "never" erroneously. Green flags on this race's last lap may seem a bit conflicting with 40.13, but that does not mean that 40.13 can never be applied in other races. What 40.13 basically says (to the drivers) is that if there's still debris out on the last lap the SC will come in to the pits but you guys got to the finish line alone with no overtaking (as in don't be confused by lack of SC ahead of you, you're not allowed to overtake). It's pretty simple. The problem is that clearing a track can take many (SC) laps if it's a hard accident so if it happens 3 laps before the end it might need 5 laps to be cleaned (so never) or it might need 2 so it gets cleaned right on the last lap. That's the only situation that can be taken as confusing. Otherwise 40.13 is an easy rule to apply. It is patently not overridden in the majority of cases. There is only some ambiguity (according to some people) in a few cases. So your initial generalising statement was wrong. 40.13 is not "always" overridden, it only might be in this case.

Read 40.11 again. 40.13 is always overridden due to simple fact: there is no clear difference between SC in this lap and ending of race under SC. And if you add fact that SC line is now before S-F line it becomes clear why. Of course 40.13 would be easy to apply if idiot who wrote it for a second had a thought how it would look like in reality. This is exact reason why rules should be clear and why they should take into consideration every possible outcome.

I will repeat again. If there is SC in the last lap, the race finishes under SC. As simple as that (it was also that clear for the stewards and most of the teams). In this case "SC in this lap" literally means (informs everyone) that the SC gets in and not as some interpret it as "you are clear to race".

[imightbewrong]

Well, Mercedes won't appeal the penalty:

With the FIA having agreed to look into the rules at the next meeting of the Sporting Working Group, Mercedes GP has decided it will not continue with its appeal.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83721

[segedunum]

Many people believe this and I did as well. But it is not true. The meaning of the green flag is defined by appendix H of the international sporting code.

4.1.2 Flag signals to be used at observation posts:
f) Green flag: This should be used to indicate that the track is clear and should be waved at the observation post immediately after the incident that necessitated the use of one or more yellow flags.
-
It may also be used, if deemed necessary by the Clerk of the Course, to signal the start of a warm-up lap or the start of a practice session.

That doesn't tell us a great deal to be honest. It would only be useful if it told us what actually gives drivers and teams the go-ahead that there are normal racing conditions. If you're in a race and you see yellows and then a green then you're racing, barring other rules of course, but then those rules will be dependant on what the track state was - hence the green flag debate and lack of safety car conditions.

Appealing on the basis of green flags alone is a red herring, but they are important in knowing what the track state was and what rules should be applied. That's the important thing.

But if another rule forbids overtaking the green flag isn't actually contradicting that interdiction.

This is at the root of it all. The problem is, there isn't a rule that forbids overtaking under the circumstances. The one that everyone thinks forbids overtaking doesn't because whatever it supposedly means is entirely dependant on whether the safety car (and conditions) was deployed at the end of that lap. Only race control could decide that because there isn't a blanket rule as there should be, and they decided it wasn't from what we've seen of the track state.

[segedunum]

Well, Mercedes won't appeal the penalty:

With the FIA having agreed to look into the rules at the next meeting of the Sporting Working Group, Mercedes GP has decided it will not continue with its appeal.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83721

I'm not surprised. It's more trouble than it's worth because the FIA are quite clearly confused themselves about the mess that they're in. They would merely dig their heels in and interpret the rules as they thought as they have always done. They can never admit that they're wrong or that there are loopholes.

"With the FIA having agreed to look into the rules at the next meeting of the Sporting Working Group, Mercedes GP has decided it will not continue with its appeal."

Which means they know the rules are wrong and they will quietly change them at later date when no one is looking to cover up for their incompetence, as I'd predicted.