NASCAR at Elkhart Lake!

[WhiteBlue]

Road America has a good combination of high speed straights and slow corners, which (in my opinion) makes for good races with these cars.

The layout doesn't look much different to your average Tilke track. The length is a bit longer at over four miles and it got a bit of elevation changes. The high speed kink seems to be a specialty but in terms of dramatic elevation changes the place seems to be no match to Spa, Suzuka or Istanbul park. It sure is a nice contrast to ovals and street courses, but I still don't understand what makes the track one of the greats. I think it is worthwhile to find out because it may be the key to what Americans love in road racing.

[ISLAMATRON]

the nascar cars will be doing nothing but destroying the tarmac like they did to Canada a couple years back... fat slow pigs... I hate the current IRL cars but they should be going there(ALMS as well) not NASCar jr

The track gives high speed cars a place to stretch their legs and that also makes for great racing... the carousel is a fantastic corner, one where the better drivers shine, Zanardi was fantastic thru there setting him up to pass at Canada corner, the kink is furious.... and it almost killed that Legge girl, awesome track.

I have an Idea for leguna seca that could bring it up to Road Amerikkka spec, but seca is almost untouchable history wise so many wouldnt go for it.

[Jersey Tom]

And what makes you think NASCAR would beat up the pavement any more than another race series? Force is force. The pavement doesn't care if it comes from a heavy stock car.. or an open wheeler with heaps of downforce.

[Belatti]

The layout doesn't look much different to your average Tilke track.

The problem of Tilke tracks are not 100% layouts, I think that their "forgiving" nature because of runoff areas has somebody to do.

After watching Canada GP I think that, while fighting for position, the drivers think twice before pushing so hard to maintain.

This is what may happen in tracks like Road America or the other classics, where you dont recover from a mistake that easy.

It sure is a nice contrast to ovals and street courses, but I still don't understand what makes the track one of the greats...

I would add ...in the US.

They doesnt have many "known" big road tracks.

[WhiteBlue]

The track gives high speed cars a place to stretch their legs and that also makes for great racing... the carousel is a fantastic corner, one where the better drivers shine, Zanardi was fantastic thru there setting him up to pass at Canada corner, the kink is furious.... and it almost killed that Legge girl, awesome track.

If people are wondering like me what it is like you can have a look at youtube.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1hVXwMYlSU[/youtube]

It has nothing like the drama of Spa as the elevation changes are gentle but the track is much longer than you would believe by looking at the track scheme. The few slower corners are connected by sufficient track length to get you up to speed again. Generally a very fast track probably with low downforce settings like Spa or even Monza to set up for F1.

Track safety features are rather primitive and would need tons of upgrades to get an F1 rating. Turn 11 (kink) definitely would not be run without a run off instead of the armco of the existing track. The bridges would be problems and need re building or completely different safety fencing.

There is practically nothing in terms grand stands for F1 crowds like 150,000 people and most of the spectator protection around the track for general admission is also missing. Curbing and track marking is not to F1 standards.

Going by the spectator facilities the paddock, media and medical facilities would also need major upgrades. You can pretty much say that you get a very nice track for amateur weekend racing that can probably be turned into an F1 facility by spending north of $100 mil. You might be saving 30-50% of what you would spend on a totally new track and buy some history.

The killer is that you need something like 15,000 hotel rooms for an F1 race or the rich teams, hacks and VIPs of the teams would be bitching to no end. Just compare what happened annually at Magny Cours. I reckon from a business point of view it makes more sense to take the pointers from it for a place like Austin which offeres the missing traffic and infra structure free of charge. The problem is that Austin probably doesn not have anywhere near the acreage and that TV coverage optimization would speak against a similar track length and layout. Simply not enough micky mouse corners for the cameras.

[xpensive]

You stay true to yourself WB, never give an inch, I have to give you that? lol:

But from your dead-certain description of the track and its facilities, I'd say it's xactly what I would like an F1 track to be like.

[ISLAMATRON]

And what makes you think NASCAR would beat up the pavement any more than another race series? Force is force. The pavement doesn't care if it comes from a heavy stock car.. or an open wheeler with heaps of downforce.

I'm not talking about their weight vs downforce I'm talking about the monsterous torque those monster v8's put out, mainly in the slowest corners like how they destroyed the hairpin at Canada, plus the downforce from an F1 car in the middle of the CGV hairpin is almost zero, but the weight of the NAscar Jr car will still be putting load into the tarmac.

No real slow corners at Road america but I'm sure they'll find a way to do some damage.

[Mystery Steve]

Meant to post this last night, but the server was down...

I still don't understand what makes the track one of the greats. I think it is worthwhile to find out because it may be the key to what Americans love in road racing.

The key to this track is the subtle technicalities that, as X mentioned previously, separate the men from the boys. There are several 50-100 mph corners that are at the end of nearly (or even exceeding) 200 mph straights and they aren't flat, smooth braking zones. And you need to get a good entry to set up the exit because corner exit is also critical there because the straights are so long. This is what I believe makes for a good F1 track. The cars have so much power and speed that you need a long straight to make a run on a guy, period.

We've seen some of these long straights leading to hard braking corners on the Tilke tracks, and they are consistently the hot overtaking locations. For example, see turns 1/12 at Turkey, turn 8 at Abu Dhabi, turn 1 in Malaysia, turn 1 in China, etc. The problem with those turns in Malaysia, China, and Abu Dhabi is they are immediately followed by a turn in the opposite direction with very little distance from corner exit to follow on corner entry. So, if you don't pass cleanly by the corner exit then you're hosed because you've gone off the racing line to get position into the previous corner and you're tires are dirty and your opponent has both cleaner tires and a better line in to the follow on corner.

You don't have that at Elkhart. The straights are long enough that you have a passing opportunity going into turn 1, or if you get turn 1 right you can set up for turn 3. You've then got a tricky braking zone going into turn 5 after a high speed straight, which can set up passing. Or, again, at the very least if you get through cleanly at 5 you set yourself up for a possible run through turns 7/8. Then if you get the flat out carousel right, or if you have a car like the Red Bulls in turn 8 at Turkey that can run flat out when others can't, then you set yourself up for a pass in 12. And none of these turns have a follow on opposite direction turn.

So you've got a track that offers high-speed, flat-throttle corners and very high speeds on the straights coupled with hard braking zones. Not to mention you have elevation changes, and it's arguably in one of the most beautiful areas of this country. Also, the weather in Wisconsin would be almost perfect this time of year (Canada was last weekend, good for logistics... ).

There are also some intangibles that make it a favorite track over here. It does have a lot of history with other series. I also personally like it because it isn't "sterile" like a lot of the newer tracks, at least in my opinion. No, it doesn't have a perfect looking surface. It doesn't have a hotel spanning the track and covered in color-changing LED lights. Are the garages enormous in capacity? No, at least not compared to the places the teams are accustomed to currently. But do they really need that to get a car on the track? Like I said before, 43 NASCAR teams are going to get along just fine. I'm sure 24 F1 teams/cars could make it work. Since when is extravagant luxury an absolute requirement for an F1 race to take place anyway? It may have become the status quo, but it doesn't have to be. These guys can suck it up and "rough it" for a weekend if they have to. They'll get over it, trust me.

Now does that mean the track is perfect in it's current state? No, it does need some infrastructure upgrades, such as larger grandstands. However, the Bernie fee is clearly the largest obstacle for any new race. If you have a 30 Million USD fee, and a large seating venue that can hold 200,000 fans, then the average ticket price is 150 USD. So to just get a family of four through the gate, you have to cough up $600 (on average). Frankly, that's pretty steep. It's just not a realistic, sustainable number without some government assistance or significant sponsorship. At the end of the day, Bernie is the road block. If he would ask a more modest fee, there are several great tracks stateside that could host an F1 race. They just can't afford it on their own.

Going back to the discussion of the track above, this video does a good job of amplifying some my points about the technicalities of the track...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duNKaCRm ... re=related[/youtube]

[WhiteBlue]

Hi MS, thanks for explaining. It really is a nice track. Most of the features you told us I have figured out for myself.

I agree that the current financial status quo is not looking very optimistic. I don't think you get enough people with money there without the necessary accommodation.

Hopefully Austin will take a leaf out of Road America's book.

[ISLAMATRON]

just 1 correction, I have never seen anyone take the carousel flat(not even Bruno in that vid), but thats what makes it such a great corner the driver must balance the car onthe throttle, too much throttle and you'll spin, too little throttle and you'll induce understeer or get drafted up onto through the kink and passed by or into canada corner.

Braking downhill into turn 5 is very tricky and I've seen some of the very best cart drivers get it wrong.

When they we're pushing 1000hp those cart races here were some of the best in the world.

And just like that guy in the vid says the camara does not do the elevation changes justice.

[Scotracer]

Road America is an epic track; extremely high speed, long, loads of elevation change and some pretty tricky corners. It's also very hard to set up for: do you go for epic straight-line speed or grip and balance for Turn 1 and the Carousel?

It's a shame we don't have the old CART monsters around there any more.

[Jersey Tom]

And what makes you think NASCAR would beat up the pavement any more than another race series? Force is force. The pavement doesn't care if it comes from a heavy stock car.. or an open wheeler with heaps of downforce.

I'm not talking about their weight vs downforce I'm talking about the monsterous torque those monster v8's put out, mainly in the slowest corners like how they destroyed the hairpin at Canada, plus the downforce from an F1 car in the middle of the CGV hairpin is almost zero, but the weight of the NAscar Jr car will still be putting load into the tarmac.

No real slow corners at Road america but I'm sure they'll find a way to do some damage.

800hp from a pushrod V8.. 800hp from a F1 V8.. the track doesn't care.

High loads will beat up a racetrack no matter what car is on it.

[donskar]

To add another perspective on Road America (I was there in the early Can-AM days): it is a beautiful setting, hills, trees, lots of green and clean. Friendly people. Great food. LOTS of good places to watch the race. Cheap tickets. A great place to watch a race and enjoy the whole experience.

I guess a lot of the above rules it out for F1

[countersteer]

If I recall correctly... when in CART, Jacques Villeneuve set his car up for a very very low downforce. The remainder of the field set up medium...


Jacques would wrestle the thing though the twisties, all over the place and then let it fly down the long straights.... They'd catch him in the turns... he'd leave them on the straights.

He was on the pole... they never caught him.

That's a long long time ago but I still remember it.

[ISLAMATRON]

And what makes you think NASCAR would beat up the pavement any more than another race series? Force is force. The pavement doesn't care if it comes from a heavy stock car.. or an open wheeler with heaps of downforce.

I'm not talking about their weight vs downforce I'm talking about the monsterous torque those monster v8's put out, mainly in the slowest corners like how they destroyed the hairpin at Canada, plus the downforce from an F1 car in the middle of the CGV hairpin is almost zero, but the weight of the NAscar Jr car will still be putting load into the tarmac.

No real slow corners at Road america but I'm sure they'll find a way to do some damage.

800hp from a pushrod V8.. 800hp from a F1 V8.. the track doesn't care.

High loads will beat up a racetrack no matter what car is on it.

The track does not feel HP, it feels torque, because it is instantaneous, and the torque from a big pushrod V-8 at low rpm's coming out of say the canada hairpin is much higher when they punch the throttle then even an F1 lump at 14,000 rpm(doubt it is even that high) when it comes on throttle at the same turn.

What part of the drag strip takes the most beating? the high torque start or the high hp 1/4 mile mark?