Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

[timbo]

What's your point, reinventing what racing should be after more than 100 years since first GP was held? For the sake of spoiled crybaby drivers, money and sponsors?!

My point is a) you can't really prevent it. Team can always do something at pit-stop, or they can "find" some problem etc.
Ferrari's move was too blatant. Still you can't prove it is "team order" per se. Felipe had info (which was correct) and made a decision.
And b) scraps as Webber/Vettel does not add to the racing IMO. A crash is a crash. A potential fatality.

[ringo]

no penalty, a team holds 2 consecutive positions, they have the right to shuffle as they please. It's a team effort and just strategy.
If other teams want to do something about it, then they should be fast enough to do so.
I am of the opinion team orders should be ok in this case.

I am against anything involving crashing out or crashing into other drivers. Anything that upsets the race for another team.

Switching positions however, is just penalties in football. One player does all the work diving in the box, or getting fouled, while the other player better able to score the penalty thus increasing points takes the kick.

I say it should be legal.

[timbo]

no penalty, a team holds 2 consecutive positions, they have the right to shuffle as they please.

I'd say team can only swap positions if driver behind is clearly faster.

I think had Felipe managed to keep Alonso more than 3 seconds behind, as he could on soft tyres, he would not have to let him pass. Remember Smedley telling him earlier in the race "You must concentrate, you can win this race".

[Mysticf1]

scraps as Webber/Vettel does not add to the racing IMO. A crash is a crash. A potential fatality.

This is formula 1 "RACING" if there no racing or people dont want passes because they may crash whats the point really.

Ferrari should be penalised, in what manner i dont know.

On a completely different note the redbulls really looked out paced today looking very twitchy...

[gcdugas]

The public isn't dumb. They know that a team works as a team. Say the second car is getting blue flags to let the leader lap through... he can take a few extra corners to do it and then he can move over immediately when his teammate laps him. The gain can be several seconds and affect the results. Team tactics.

I think the rule is stupid and unenforceable. It only rewards those shrewd enough to mask it. "Save fuel" messages, a "jammed wheel nut" or some other reason for a slow stop... there are several ways to mask results manipulation. It is best that everything be out in the open like it is in bicycle racing. I remember McLaren openly using one car to create an aerodynamic "tow" down the straight during quali at Indy in 2000 and 2001. Is this against the individual spirit of mano-y-mano racing also?

And what about customer teams... say a Toro Rosso delays Hamilton for a lap of blue flags to allow Fernando to close in on Lewis... say STR even gets penalized... all Ferrari has to do is let them have a free engine or something and it is worth it for STR to be "buddies" on the track.

[ringo]

I liked that part of the race. Smedley really believed in Massa. But then a memo was passed down from the big guys upstairs, that changed everything.

Kimi did a better job of masking the switcheroo though, but i didn't expect less.

team orders come in various forms, and has a blurry line between itself and strategy.

Even today when Button and Hamilton were holding up webber, it was all about orders and strategy.

Mclaren were keeping an eye on their closest rival, who happens to be webber. Keep him behind, mitigate your losses in the WCC.

[timbo]

This is formula 1 "RACING" if there no racing or people dont want passes because they may crash whats the point really.

I'm all for overtaking.
But you effectively cannot prevent team orders.
There's no need to end that in crash, just for the sake of "no team orders".

[Dukeage]

What penalty? Disqualify both cars from the race and team from the WCC for that year.

[WhiteBlue]

If the stewards can find against Ferrari issuing team order I think that the penalty should be reversal of the first and second place and a big fine to Ferrari. I'm talking millions here not just 100,000 € or constructor points.

Ferrari did not affect the points of anybody but their own drivers. So nobody else should profit from it. On the other hand if they are guilty of breaking the rule they should suffer.

[mep]

Hey guys there is a clear rule who says NO.
We have seen many cases already where no clear rule exists (Monaco) and there was still a punishment. So having no punishment now would be just ridiculous.

[marcush.]

I can´t believe the naivity of the people involved...what s the point in telling Webber to turn down his engine and let Vettel think he will be able to pass and then create the mess they did loosing a bag of points and a win in the process..Or create a temporary problem for one of the drivers to fool the audience the overtake was for real ,or creatte a pseudo fight..to change positions.
You all seem to forget that this is first of all a business .the business of Ecclestone is entertainment ,the business of Fia is to create a sporting event and make profit in this .The business of the teams is to win the championship to get more sponsorship and revenue.
You would be an idiot to throw a way points for your better placed driver (not the team)
in this situation.. it was blunt and not good executed...
BUT : say Massa decided without any words of order to let him by without fight.,what could Fia or anyone do? We have witnessed drivers caught asleep in race situations before...I prefer to know it was team tactic instead of being told some crap....

of course they will be punished ..Schumacher lost all points in Monaco for a unclear regulation interpretation..the situation here is bvious.So at least a 30s docking of points for Massa and Ferrari loosing all points gained in this round in the constructors.. Alonso? clean ..what could he do?

[gcdugas]

Does anybody else see the irony of Jean Todt having to deal with this mess?

[timbo]

Does anybody else see the irony of Jean Todt having to deal with this mess?

Yeah, it's funny.

But Todt was rather diplomatic at dealing with things. It is reasonable to expect no further escalation.

[Holm86]

Team and driver points should be deleted for the race in question.
Sometimes teamorders can be disguised but when it is this obvious as in the case of ferrari at hockenheim FIA MUST step in. A small fine is never going to hurt the team.

[Shaddock]

Switching positions however, is just penalties in football. One player does all the work diving in the box, or getting fouled, while the other player better able to score the penalty thus increasing points takes the kick.

I say it should be legal.

It's not a team sport, its about a drivers world championship, that makes it an individual event foremost. In effect you are fixing the drivers championship by allowing team orders, and this it what the majority of viewer are interested in.

Simple enough to fix, scrap the constructors WC and make it everyone for themselevs, less of this 'I race for the team'.