German GP 2010 - Hockenheimring

[Predator]

Am I the only one who sees the irony of having Jean Todt's admin have to deal with this? $100,000 fine (and a later WMSC ruling)... hmmm.

Truly there is no way to unscramble an egg.

Also, Alonso won this race yet in Valencia he talked about the race being ''manipulated!'' Haha.

[Miguel]

Can anyone remind me what happened when Nick Heidfeld let Robert Kubica by in the 2008 Canadian GP? What was the result of that race? Did the stewards take any action?

[rifrafs2kees]

2005 Canada :

Alonso to team : Once more I'm right to him, what more I have to do ?
Team : We understand, we know you're quicker. Overtake him.

At least Renault was more correct , and a little sarcastic when they told him to overtake. They didn't tell nothing to Fisi, just for Alonso : Yes? You are really there ? You're quicker ? Ok, so OVERTAKE him if you can. But it shows that for Alonso it's quite normal to complain about these things, and he did it even back in 2005. It's up to the team how they respond to this. Obviously at Mcl thet didn't want to cooperate, but Alonso tried again in Ferrari...and they listened to him. Sad but true.

Sorry for poor quality, didn't find better >

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IDH6CUBMU[/youtube]

I am in total agreeance with you. Knowing and seeing what I see now, there's no way Alonso and Hamilton would have gotten along. I have never seen a driver display such "entitlement" attitude, and it seems he's got cult power over ferrari as evidenced by his numerous unchallenged complaints to the team. I hope Massa can stay strong and handle it with the best attitude which will be to try to improve. The best thing Ferrari have done since hiring Alonso is to have resigned Massa instead of getting Kubica. That honeymoon between Kubica and Alonso will surely turn into fireworks like we've never seen before if they are team mates as Kubica seems to be a chap who bends over for nobody.

[Shrieker]

I think it's ridiculous that the teams can not use team tactics. Before 2002 such a rule didn't exist and rightly so. As another member pointed out, F1 is a team sport -much like cycling- and team orders should be perfectly legal.

But of course Schumi abused it so badly it brought the sport into disrepute and team tactics had to be banned. To me it's Schumacher's fault. Prior to that there was an unwritten rule about team tactics and everyone denied allegations whenever a certain driver was favored over the other. Ask Mika and David. They just converted into a written rule when Ferrari (Schumi) exploited their right to use team tactics. But there is nothing wrong with helping out your team mate when he has whole a lot more of a chance of winning compared to you - as long as you don't abuse your freedom to do so- as Schumi and Ferrari did in 2002.

abuse, exploit: Ordering a team mate -who was clearly faster than you on that occasion- to yield his position, when the season isn't even halfway through.

[ParanoiD]

I'll only add that the German GP isn't the first time we've had clear team orders since 2002. Off the top of my head, Ferrari used them in Brazil 2007 (Kimi WDC) and China 2008 (for Massa, didn't work out). McLaren used them at least in Hungary 2005 (Montoya letting Kimi by), Germany 2008 (Kovalainen letting Hamilton by) and Turkey 2010 ("Jenson, save fuel"). We've seen the Red Bull incidents, as well. Tell me how this is different from taking off the front wing from one car to put it into the other. None of these incidents were awarded a penalty.

By the way, those that complain that this results hasn't allowed them to see a battle for the win, shouldn't be too unhappy because it allowed them to see a battle for second and it certainly helps a 5-way title race.

this is quite a point here

i guess its just that everyone have been exposed to something like this for so long.

[Predator]

Both should be penalised.

Massa played his part in this too, and while I feel for him, If he ignored Ferrari we wouldnt have had this problem.

Perhaps it's in his contract to let Alonso past...? Maybe when they extended it, this was one of the clauses otherwise he was out the door?

[andrew]

I think that 1st and 2nd places should be reversed or Alonso's result is disallowed. The team gets points from Massa's finish, Massa gets the win but they get nothing for Alonso. I think that is a lot fairer and will hurt the team more that a $100,000 fine which will be like pocket money to a team teh size of Ferrari.

Both should be penalised.

Massa played his part in this too, and while I feel for him, If he ignored Ferrari we wouldnt have had this problem.

True, but I would not be surprised if Alonso would have shoved him off the track if he had held station. His choices were probably he does what he's told, he finishes 2nd. He keeps racing, Alonso gets desperate, BANG, no points. Either way, I think he should kept racing and let Alonso go round him the hard way. As I said, Rob Smedley's comments over the radio were very clear and obvious, as was the "pass". I wonder if this was known about before the race and Massa and Smedley decided they would make it really obvious when it did happen (sorry don't want to start anymore F1 conspirocy theories but it is a thought).

[andrew]

But of course Schumi abused it so badly it brought the sport into disrepute and team tactics had to be banned. To me it's Schumacher's fault.

Don't see how you can seriously blame a driver. It is the team that puts out the orders. And why single out Schumacher? Coulthard had to pull over twice (at least) for Hakinnen, then there was Spa 98 where a Ferrari and McLaren came together (how it happend is a whole debate in itself), the Jordans finish stunk a bit also, McLaren in Turkey, the list goes on.

The thing about Austria 2002 was yes it stunk and I didn't like it as much as the next person but if you watch the podium ceremony, you will see what the drivers thought of it, in fact the drivers were fined for Schumacher trying to put Barrichello on the top step. Somehow I didn't expect to see Alonso do that, nor do I expect to see Alonso return the favour (as Schumacher did in the US GP).

[forty-two]

I hate to say this as I feel sorry for Massa, but I feel that BOTH drivers are to blame here. Fernando for profiting from the team order, and Massa for complying. I expect some on here will say that Massa was being a "team player", but nonetheless it was HIS actions that made the team order actually happen.

Take the example of Nelson Piquet Junior deliberately crashing in order for his team mate to profit (shock horror, the very same person!). Did he do anything wrong? Yes. He paid for this with his career (arguably rightly so). Granted, that incident involved a very dangerous situation which endangered the lives of drivers, stewards and arguably spectators too while this one did not, the fact remains the same. A driver carried out a team order to benefit his team-ate and was rightly punished for it.

In this case, the exact same things happened, the only difference was that nobody actually crashed, but all the other elements were there.

The WMSC need to make an example of the team (to deter other teams from doing the same) and ALSO the drivers involved for the same reason.

I know this is hard on Massa, but "I was just following orders" has been proven to be no defence so many times in the past!

[Shrieker]

But of course Schumi abused it so badly it brought the sport into disrepute and team tactics had to be banned. To me it's Schumacher's fault.

Don't see how you can seriously blame a driver. It is the team that puts out the orders. And why single out Schumacher? Coulthard had to pull over twice (at least) for Hakinnen, then there was Spa 98 where a Ferrari and McLaren came together (how it happend is a whole debate in itself), the Jordans finish stunk a bit also, McLaren in Turkey, the list goes on.

The thing about Austria 2002 was yes it stunk and I didn't like it as much as the next person but if you watch the podium ceremony, you will see what the drivers thought of it, in fact the drivers were fined for Schumacher trying to put Barrichello on the top step. Somehow I didn't expect to see Alonso do that, nor do I expect to see Alonso return the favour (as Schumacher did in the US GP).

I want to make myself totally clear here. I despise Alonso. Much of it has got something to do with him having a transformation from this silent humble guy to a spoilt brat when he won the title. Yeah, surely you're entitled to say - at least some pampering when you've become the F1 world champion, but someone with a true character will put it behind quickly and return to being his usual self. But in Alonso's case it just got worse and worse as further controversy surfaced. It was as if a stinking cloud was following him every step of the way.

That said, I think there was NOTHING WRONG ethically with what Ferrari did today. Let's be honest - as good a driver Massa is, we all know he has his 'bloody quick' days when no one can touch him; but on other races he just looks average. Alonso is a better candidate for winning the title. And they're behind with a marginal gap in the point standings. What do you expect them to do? Of course if you're a hard-core fan of written rules and laws -even when they're against basic logic- today's event should've looked like an abomination to you.

If Massa was convincingly faster than Alonso today and had Ferrari still ordered him to cede his position, it would've looked wrong from an ethical point of view too.

That was the problem in Schumacher's case. What made it worse is that he was the main protagonist behind the team orders and why they were abused so badly. We all know Schumi chose his team mates - and probably forced 'special' articles in their contracts. If the driver didn't accept this 'article' in his contract, he wouldn't be driving alongside Schumi. If Ferrari wasn't willing to cooperate with Schumi, he'd just drive for another team and carry his crew with him - which he brought along from Benetton. Simple as that. And of course Ferrari couldn't afford it so they bowed to his will.

That's why I'm accusing one certain individual. Team orders were implemented in several cases before Schumacher but his actions brought the sport into disrepute forcing the governing body to entirely ban team tactics.

On top of all that, Schumacher pushing Barrichello to the top step of the podium showed what a hypocrite he was.

[Ganxxta]

Both should be penalised.

Massa played his part in this too, and while I feel for him, If he ignored Ferrari we wouldnt have had this problem.

...and he would no longer drive red cars

[woohoo]

Can anyone remind me what happened when Nick Heidfeld let Robert Kubica by in the 2008 Canadian GP? What was the result of that race? Did the stewards take any action?

Were there team orders ?

From I can remember, Heidfeld tried to block Alonso, and Kubica just took them both in one move.

[mep]

I don't get why people still keep on blaming Schumacher. They made that team order thing once. Ok, but there was no law not allowing to do so. He is not hypocrite when he tries to push Barrichelo on top of the podiem it shows that he is a honest guy and knows that it was Barrichelos win. He even gave back that win on some races later in the year. Alonso today did much worse. He was calling for teamorder despite the fact that it is banned today. This means he gives a --- about written rules. He just wants his own advantage. Furthermore he is a big liar too. In press-conference he said that he don't know why Massa got slower. Its not even the first time we see bad behaviour from Alonso. We can make a long list of all the bad Alonso things. No other driver can top this list, nobody.

[zenithbeach]

Q. (Ian Gordon, News of the World) Fernando, you said after Valencia that the race had been manipulated in favour of Lewis. Those words seem a bit hollow now. Where will this victory rank in your career, is it up there with Singapore 2008?

FA: I think you have a very strong result from Ferrari today, one and two, a very strong performance all weekend and if the final thought of the weekend is your question it’s because maybe you didn’t see the whole practice, qualifying and the race, so maybe it’s too early for you that Ferrari came back so strong.

Q. (Ian Gordon, News of the World) Team orders are banned in Formula One. They were banned in 2002, that was blatant team orders.

FA: Sure.

Q. (Ian Gordon, News of the World) Eddie Jordan just said that you two should be kicked out of the race.

FA: Again, if this is the final thought of the weekend for you, I think it is because you didn’t see the performance of the team and the performance from our car this weekend.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/07/25/f ... onference/

this makes me wanna kick alonso in his non existant balls

[zenithbeach]

Q. (Byron Young, The Daily Mirror) The reality is, though, that you couldn’t beat him on the track, so you had to get the team to do it for you.

FA: If that’s your opinion.

Q. (Byron Young, The Daily Mirror) I’m asking you, is that not your opinion?

FA: No.

Q. (Byron Young, The Daily Mirror) He had to give you this win, didn’t he, Fernando?

FA: No.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/07/25/f ... onference/

ok alonso, you are officially a douche!

and byron young is god! thanks for askin the obvious and exposin alonso for the weak driver he really is. shame on you alonso, shame on you. at least admit to it.