Yesterday, the World Motorsport Council decided not to give Ferrari further punishment after they were handed a $100,000 fine for using team orders during the German GP. Today, the FIA released the full decision.
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Maybe it's me, I genuinely don't get this 'pick and choose' what rules should be enforced and what other rules are just for decoration, to waste toner - What if Ferrari decided to add a couple of extra cylinders and a turbo, you know, cos turbos and V10s are part of F1 history too.
It's not about other sports, or commerce, or teams, or any other piece of chaff thrown up, it's rules. Rules are rules, if they are not, then someone should just let us know, cos otherwise we are all wasting our time.
A team doesn't like the rules, you petition to have them changed, if the rules don't change, then you have a choice, compete or stay home. If you sign up to a competition, then you are making a commitment, a commitment to obey the rules. Not play silly games with passwords and lying to our faces like we are idiots.
So here's how you stop it "happening all the time": you jump on an offender's throat so hard that every other team principal would rather piss his pants in public than even contemplate trying it on again. You want them waking up sweating cos they had a bad-dream that they tried to fix a result. You want teams bending over backwards to show they aint running bent, everything is squeaky clean.
No points, at least a race ban, maybe three, and a coupla years probation, violation of which for any WMSC offense, see no WCC points and no TV money.
Drop that on someone, and you can bet that folk will suddenly start taking 39.1 a whole lot more seriously.
Tangentially ...
I also note with interest that the FIA agreement with FOM expires this year, leaving a gaping 7million dollar hole in the FIA's finances. That's an interesting number to bear in mind if this thing ever sees the inside of a smoky Paris backroom.
This rule came up just because of Ferrari and today we saw how much they care about it.
They give a --- for this rule and just do it again like it would be a normal thing.
This punishment by the FIA is just ridiculous, 100.000 Dollar is nothing for them.
For this price they will do it again.
Ajams, in principle I agree with you that traditionally team order was ok and should still be ok. On the other side the rules were changed and all competitors have to respect that.
It should be a tricky situation for Jean Todt and it certainly is egg on the face of Ferrari that they have not sorted this out before.
Unless I'm mistaken the new rules for disciplinary action in the FiA will deal with this case. Todt will at least not be the prosecutor and part of the jury.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
timbo wrote:You know what.
I'd say this, and I know I'd be bashed, but anyway.
If two drivers are racing together and the driver behind is clearly faster for several laps, let them exchange positions.
There are team strategies in all sorts of sport. You always see it in bicycle races.
Team strategy is bad when it is implemented against others or when team asks a driver who IS faster to back off, as happened with Rubens in Austria both times.
I don't think Webber/Vettel crash is better than that. Because it IS a crash.
+1
+ team orders can't be policed. The drivers could stage an outbraking manoeuvre triggered by coded message from the pits like "The donkey is out for a walk" or something like that. Drivers exchange positions upon team orders nearly in every race. Nobody cares unless they make an Italian drama out of it.
BTW the pit radio bit was hilarious. He... is... faster.... than... you... Do you understand?... (or else, horse's head etc.)
Ferrari clearly messed up on this front THIS PARTICULAR TIME, so it looked bad on TV, thus they were adequately penalized for bad publicity. But the fact will remain. Racing is a teams sport and team orders have and always will be part of it no matter what you think. Live with it.
It can't be prevented. If draconian penalties are enforced for any semblance of on track orders, the orders will be taken off track (e.g. "If #1 driver is right behind You, relinquish the position. We won't tell You to do it, but we will replace You if You don't.").
I personally think it's bs to enforce 39.1 this deep into the championship. I would say the Rubens/Schumi situation was one to criticize because of how early it was in the championship. I say let teammates race with equal opportunity until eiither a point differential between the two teammates (or between the leading driver of the two and the WDC leader), or until x% of the championship is completed, or based on some probability formula that factors in these and other factors into winning the WDC.
All this b****ing about team orders making the championship less exciting ignores the fact that team orders have directly contributed to 2 of the most nail-biting championships in the last decade. Massa giving Kimi the win in Brazil 2007 & Kimi giving Massa the win in China 2008.
The fine is pocket-change for them and their main sponsor. Pls do keep in mnd that this event was highly sponsored by Santader (podium-background for one) and that Alonso brought along the same sponsor to Ferrari. I'd think it's plausible that the sponsor instructed the team-orders to have "their" boy be on the top-step of the podium with their background. No matter what it takes. 100K$ ???, no problem, make it happen... It's good marketing material and no-pone in the marketing department will think back to the way it was achieved.
In this case (very badly executed order), I would expect Massa's engineer to be internally reprimanded for this since it his his "lack" of communication skills that made it so obvious to us. If he would have been slickier/smarter with his communication, it wouldn't have been as obvious for all the world to hear / see.
Punishment:
Todt and the WMSC to decide, but at least all points (driver + team) should be removed but not the finishing order so that otehr teams would not benefit from the possible points-redistribution. The teams did not finish 1st and 2nd so they don't deserve the points. They should be on probation for the remainder of this season and the next season. The next offense brought fwd to the WMLSC would trigger ban for 3 races.
Team-order could be better regulated but it's not my palce to say what's good or bad. Inmy humble opinion, I would create a section in the contract for every driver that if a colleague driver is ahead in the driver-standings in the 2nd half of the season for more then 25% of the points remaining, the driver should drive as supportive fo the other driver as possible. This would mean let him pass if he is directly behind or assure a better-then-direct-competitors-of-colleague-driver result in order to assure his colleague's direct competitors gain as little as possible. Violation of this contract section would violate the contract and could be reason enough to cancel driver's contarct immediately or after re-occurence or not pre-longue at end of the season, despite a possible prior made agreement. That would bring the gentlemenship back and also the team-playing part.
P.S. I'm surprised some drivers aren't making these decisions themselves! Arguably they would stand to lose less morale having made the decision themselves instead of waiting for instructions! Surely the team fellowship (and 2nd chance to prove yourself by getting a contract renewal) is greater than the statistic of the single win!
Kurt:
racers are racers and they will fight for every point. Also keep in mind the guys we're talking about here are all less then 30yrs old and they are not allowed to make mistakes without the world seeing them. The don't work under a magnifying glass, they work under a electron microscope. Everything is enlarged a thousand times and then some. I'd say the drivers-contracts should be made smarter and team-order can only be allowed in the 2nd half of the season if the points-difference between 2 drivers is >25% highest ranked driver. Make it clear to the racers in private before the race that if the situation occurs, they know what do do. Surely, this type of contract would not prefer one rider over the otehr, only the betetr driver over the weaker in the 2nd half of the season if the points-difference is large enough (25%). Every contract is to be validated by FIA.
The FIA likes rules a lot, well, they should put this one into place.
We must remember that there are two races going on at the time. Drivers and team.
The over riding factor is that the team takes priority. I see nothing wrong with a driver driving for a team taking team orders. No team is under any obligation to provide equal cars nor to play fair to the drivers. If the drivers don't like it they can eff of.
No ban, fine or penality -just a better understanding that F1 is a team sport
The problem with penaties for team orders is that these have gone on for so long with no penalties, it is difficult for the FIA to do anything, short of having an FIA official embedded within each team.
I think the only fair thing to do is strip Ferrari of all points. In effect Alonso has kind of benefitted from an illeagal pass therefore either 1st and 2nd should be reversed or Alonso if disqualified.
Apparently Ferrari are saying it was Massa's decision. I can see them hanging the poor guy out to dry now.
Ferrari have been punished by the FIA (or whoever) because they embarrassed them. If they had done it subtly they would not have been punished. Red Bull showed how it should be done in Turkey (Mark save fuel switch to low power economy mode) except the drivers made a huge hash of the execution.
What Ferrari did in Austria was awful. The rule was introduced to prevent a repeat. They have just done it again but not quite as blatantly. They have been given a slap on the wrist. A heavier punishment would be better.
However I fully understand that the teams need to do what Ferrari did today.
To me the worst was Mika Hakkinen's first win (Portugal)
At Jerez he finally crossed the line first, although after teammate Coulthard had been asked to move over for him and title contender Jacques Villeneuve, nursing a damaged car, was asked by his team to consider letting him through.
andrew wrote:Apparently Ferrari are saying it was Massa's decision. I can see them hanging the poor guy out to dry now.
Piquet 2008 = Massa 2010
Piquet agreed to listen to team orders and created mess, Massa did so too. They've done it for their own interests, greedy personal interests (seat in team, money, career). Team heads are organizers, but without consent from any of those two nothing would have happened. Alonso benefited, but he did nothing. It was the team and Massa who are to blame, although Alonso's obvious whining to team on radio was call for action that followed, so stripping both WDC and WCC points and adding special punishment for the person in team who issued the order and Massa who pulled the trigger.
There have been put forth arguments based on the perspective of drivers, teams, sponsors, and the FIA/FOM. But all these different groups are leeches, because each and every one of them depend on the fans. Yea, the little people, who get up at the weirdest hours to watch our favorite heroes do battle on the asphalt. Teams hire drivers with the expectation they put out a maximum effort whenever they are in the car, that they dig down deep and produce quick lap after quick lap. Well, guess what, I'm a fan and I have that expectation too. These guys are the best of the best, put on display so we the fans can marvel and revel in the display of talent and courage. I expect each and every driver to do their best, to fight to the end, and to make every reasonable effort to secure a personal victory. Not to allow themselves to be moved around like chess pieces for the benefit of the team's good fortunes.
Sure there are team sports, but when the field takes the grid in preparation for race start, it's each man for himself. One man starts in one car, and attempts to finish. No driver swap as in other disciplines like LeMans, but instead a purely individual competition. Endurance racing is a team sport, Formula One racing is an individual sport.
I firmly believe that Formula One racing is an individual competition, the fact that each team has two cars and drivers a mere minor point having nothing to do with determining the race outcome.
Now, all my rant is about one fan's opinion, which I sincerely hope is worth something when the FIA consider Ferrari's fate.
But without any doubt, these were specific team orders, and obviously Ferrari chose to ignore a rule. There are other rules too, such as "thou shall not spy", or "thou shall not crash in order to assist in a teammate winning". Do I think what happened at Hockenheim is worth punishment suitable for those mentioned sins? Yes, I actually do believe this kind of crap really has a serious negative impact on the credibility of the sport.
I'm a sportsman, I competed in a lot of sports in my youth, and these days I take great pleasure watching great athletes and sportsmen do great things on the field of competition. It's a wonderful thing to watch some great athlete do something amazing. But when the outcome is fixed, when it suddenly becomes fake like pro wrestling, it's value as something actually worthy of recognition plummets.
Who knows, it's very possible Alonso could have passed Massa in a fair fight. And it would have been very cool, a wonderful story about a man really digging down deep and doing something special. Think about it, Alonso had just come off a few very bad races, where his mental stability was in question. But he put on a great drive and put himself in a position to win. He won, but there will always be an asterisk next ot this mention in the history books. It's a shame, a great performance overshadowed by the bigger storyline about Ferrari shenanigans.
What should the penalty be? I remember Honda had to sit out two races because their fuel tank had innovations that were in contravention of the rules. Ferrari require the message that even they can't flagrantly break the rules when it suits them. No one can do this kind of stuff and walk away untouched, severe punishement is warranted. But the politics of Formula one will kick in, and the final outcome may come off in a weird way. The next three races are in the continent, and there's just no way Ferrari can miss Monza. More likely the final decision on any discipline will come out after Monza, and most likley it will just be probabtion.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.
