Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

[Pandamasque]

I firmly believe that Formula One racing is an individual competition, the fact that each team has two cars and drivers a mere minor point having nothing to do with determining the race outcome.

Both drivers have the same employer. Hence being employees they will perform for the benefit of the team. Drivers of the same team are in no way independent. I've never heard of this in F1, more so, in the past the team could pit one driver and take away his car in favour of the other driver if necessary.

IMO, the team orders rule should be scrapped as it's impossible to implement.

[manchild]

I lament that this sort of event is necessary for Manchild to post.

Well, it was first race I've watched from start till finish in years. What did I get? Another race fixed by money & politics!

Bernie should be the 1st person in the world to demand harsh punishment by WMSC since staged show with fixed outcome turns TV viewers away.

Will I watch next race? No way. Perhaps only first lap to see if someone crashes and that's it. Why should I waste almost 2 hours on something that has huge chances of being fixed? What is the thrill in being sheep that stares at the screen?

That is not racing, that is shameful corporate sh*t, typical Ferrari sh*t. Has anyone read interview with Domenicali?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85557

That man has spitted so may lies in the face of millions of F1 fans, journalists/connoisseurs, current and ex-F1 drivers worldwide without blinking. F*ck Santander, fu*k Stefano, fu*k all that political sh*t for which I hoped had went to history with MoSSley's era. No one watches F1 to see sponsors, whoring second drivers or sissy ex. champions.

IMO, the team orders rule should be scrapped as it's impossible to implement.

Not all teams are the same, some teams don't need rules to control them. In 1997, Frentzen finished 4 races in front of his teammate Villeneuve who was fighting for the championship! Not even once did Sir Frank Williams ordered him to let JV overtake to score more points, despite that there was no such FIA rule to prevent him in that.

That is why Frank Williams is Sir, and that is why Todt and now Domenicali are S*it.

Yeah, I could find better words to describe those two, but since they don't give a fu*k about anyone on this planet but main sponsor, not even about their own team fans, why should I give a fu*k about choice of words?

People like them have ruined sportsmanship in F1 over the years, now one of them is even on top of the FIA. I can't see an organization and the sport filled with people with Machiavellian psychological profile leading it to nothing but total degradation.

my 2 cents

Over and out for who knows how long.

Totally disappointed.

[megz]

tl;dr.

[Mahalollama]

Don't want to see penalties here but I expect so.

My problem is with the blatant way the message was transmitted AND Felipe's OVERACTING in allowing the pass - AND his attitude and words afterwards.

He really appears to be talking out of both sides of his mouth. I don't like it but it is good for the team.

If it was his position that it is good for the team then ACT ACCORDINGLY! Just allow the change of positions in a subtle way (like so many teams do) and just shut up afterward. Repeat that yes, Alonso was fastest and he was catching me. I didn't want to have a crash and since we ARE teammates, I did what was best for my team!

By acting like a slapped rat, he has caused a white hot spotlight on the whole affair and both him and Smedley should have acted differently.

Ferrari, and all teams, should really have all this figured out beforehand for many reasons, not just the Webber/Vettel debacle. That crash caused WAY more issues than a simple driver swap.

Just my $0.02.

[Rob W]

Faster driver overtakes, faster driver doesn't need team order to overtake. What's your point, reinventing what racing should be after more than 100 years since first GP was held? For the sake of spoiled crybaby drivers, money and sponsors?!

I agree Manchild... people too often say "he was faster/better".. to which the reply should be "then he should have passed him eventually".

The fastest lap does not matter; the fastest sector time does not matter; the fastest stint does not matter - it is who gets to the end of the race first that matters. In this respect if Alonso couldn't get past Massa then Massa is technically the quicker (if it gets to the end).

This $100,000 fine put in terms of the average person is like being fined $10. Hardly a penalty at all. Ferrari just restricting their employees globally to one less coffee a day for one day would recover more money. This event should warrant a $1m penalty in the least and the points for both drivers and the team being docked.

Many F1 teams have clearly shown in recent years that they will do whatever the FIA let them get away with. Therefore the only way to prevent this sort of stuff is to make the penalty much harsher. A $100,000 fine just says: "do this anytime you want".

That is why Frank Williams is Sir, and that is why Todt and now Domenicali are S*it.

Quoted for truth and accuracy.

Also - from Domenicali's interview - to demonstrate how smug he really is:

Q. After today's situation, is it now clear that you have a number one and a number two driver?

Stefano Domenicali: No. No.

Q. Why?

Stefano Domenicali: Because otherwise I would have said yes.

[ecapox]

What is the definition of "Team orders"?

When the team principle, or the head of the team, disadvantages one driver in favor of another and alters the outcome (finishing order) of a race?

[jon-mullen]

Smedley should have to pay the fine for being so obvious. He might as well have begged the FIA to fine them. I'm relatively certain he's getting his ass CHEWED right now.

[Confused_Andy]

It should never have been down to Smedley to deliver the message.

[gcdugas]

Re: the $100K being a light fine...

I read on the Joe Saward blog that $100K is the max the stewards can mete out. After that it must go to the WMSC for a stiffer penalty. So right now it is as stiff as possible and awaiting further review.

As to Manchild's "disappointment"... I say "Get real". In EVERY sport these things happen. It is not such a hyper-individual endeavor. In baseball a batter will sacrifice bunt to advance a base runner rather than swinging for the fences every time. In American football a player may lateral the ball when he can go no further but his teammate can. In soccer and hockey they recognize "assists" as well as goals. etc. etc. And then we have the example of bicycle racing where it is an art form to shield a chosen rider from the wind so he is fresh to sprint to the finish line at the end of the stage. The public understands these things, accepts them and even embraces them. F1 should have never made such a silly unenforceable rule. In NASCAR, certainly popular with the fans, teammates and drivers hook up all the time to draft each other to save fuel, break away from the pack etc. It is recognized as an art form and skill.

It is true that the "equal treatment policy" cost McLaren the 2007 title to Ferrari which had Massa help Kimi. Williams likely lost their last chance at a title in 2003 for the same reason. Had they gone with JPM the title would certainly have been theirs (barring more FIA interference like they did at Indy that year with the bogus JPM/Rubens penalty). Team tactics win titles. Such a rule forbidding them only rewards the shrewd who are able to mask their tactics. It can never be enforced equitably so such a rule becomes itself a tool of inequality.

Felipe gets an "assist"... he is the same as a baseball hitter who sacrificed to advance a runner or score a runner. The teams don't race for wins, they race for titles and titles are the result of a season long campaign. The long term goal ALWAYS trumps the short term gain. Say Webber is marginal on his engine... the team may have him short shift an entire race losing a few places but saving a fresh engine for the next race. Such things go unnoticed by the fans but are very real and decisions are made with the entire season in mind... not just the checkered flag.

And then we must consider another root cause to all this... If the faster car could pass all the time, such things would be unnecessary. F1 needs to get serious about overtaking. Indy cars have no problem overtaking on street circuits or ovals. NASCAR can have five different leaders in a half of a lap. Moto-GP has no problem with overtaking either. But F1 hasn't really changed any since the Bernoldi-Coulthard incident of 2002 which was a travesty. Gimmicks like movable wings, goofy tire compound rules etc. are not the answer. More grip and less aero is the answer. We need more ground effects also since it is less disturbed by "dirty air".

[WhiteBlue]

most unusually I have to agree with gcdugas

[donskar]

I expected this outpouring of hate. I don't think there is any question that a few members of this forum will attack Ferrari no matter what Ferrari does.

Ferrari won the race -- twice in the sense that you can disqualify Massa OR Alonso and the other still wins the race. Ferrari won the race with a car that was superior at this time and place. In no way was the victory the result of violating any rule.

Several members of this forum have better memories (or more experience with Google) than I do. I will leave it to them to fill in the details, but I'll simply say that if you think F1 team orders are new or unusual, then you haven't followed F1 for very long.

I will ask the McLaren fans to refresh our memory about the race McLaren fixed through team orders. Remember when it was decided before an early season race that the McL driver who got through turn 1 first would be given the win?

Team orders can be punished by the most Draconian penalties -- cut off the driver's hands if you like. The result will simply be more clever codes. At least Ferrari was open, no code here: "Massa, Alonso is faster than you." Want a sure-fire solution? Abolish the constructor's championship.

What would I do if I were in charge at Ferrari? Fire Massa. He's an employee who worked strongly against his employer's best interests.

[Sean H]

What is the definition of "Team orders"?

When the team principle, or the head of the team, disadvantages one driver in favor of another and alters the outcome (finishing order) of a race?

How far do you take that?

Giving one driver different equimpment than the other?
Putting one driver on an obviously different pit strategy (3 stops vs 2 for the other)?
How many times have we seen a teammate slow another driver down to help his teammate gap the field or another certain driver?
What about car setups that favor one driver more than the other? Is that "team orders".

These are all "team orders". I say let them race. If a driver doesn't want to be #2 then that is up to the driver. As long as "team orders" don't effect other teams, I say let them do as they wish.


Smedley should of just said "go to engine map Fred". Nobody would of figured it out.

[timbo]

In 1997, Frentzen finished 4 races in front of his teammate Villeneuve who was fighting for the championship! Not even once did Sir Frank Williams ordered him to let JV overtake to score more points, despite that there was no such FIA rule to prevent him in that.

That is not true. You should watch Jerez race and how Villeneuve overtook Frenzen.

[CHT]

This is not a question about what weather team order is right or wrong, its about a team who deliberately break the FIA rules. $100,000 fine is just a slap on the wrist for Ferrari, and for the sake FIA and F1 credibility, i think Ferrari should be banned in the coming 1 or 2 races.

IMO whoever that came out with the script at Ferarri should be sacked as well. From the way Rob Smedley put it across to Massa over the radio, I got this feeling that Rob is doing it against his will.

[Rob W]

gcdugas' example of the baseball bunter/soccer assist isn't quite applicable here.

In baseball everyone knows it is being done and it is part of the game as all punters understand it.

F1 team orders are secretive and most of the punters watching don't know it's been done. More importantly, they deviate from the concept of sports being a competition without a predetermined outcome.

In soccer/basketball an assist is part of a single competitor entry - the team - whereas in F1 each team has two entries who compete irrespective of whether their team-mate is slow, crashes, runs out of fuel etc. A comparable assist to soccer in F1 would probably be a team-mate deliberately slowing the competition so the other guy could drive off into the sunset or, worse, something like Renault's Singapore 08 shenanigans.

In F1 there are two aspects to consider: the driver as a competitor and the team. I think any manipulation/team orders goes against what spectators want to see and what any normal person would tell you was a key concept of sport: to compete. I.e. it ignores two of the most important criteria by which F1 has any credibility as a sport.

The events last night were effectively one team altering the real outcome of the race by outside influence. Whether you think it should be allowed or not there is zero chance it makes races better for everyone - fans, sponsors etc.

Alonso may well have passed Massa (who had already made a couple of errors anyway) but now he has to suffer with Massa-lovers hating him, fans hating on him, Massa probably secretly hating him, the local race promoter being pissed off, sponsors having to explain to their customers why they support such a farce.... etc