German GP 2010 - Hockenheimring

[Ray]

After what happened in todays race with Ferrari, Vettel not being able to start a race without driving someone into the wall, and Castroneves being called for blocking in todays Indy race I'm absolutely convinced there isn't a fair racing series anywhere in the world. This is ridiculous.

[thestig84]

This thread is hilarious! One team order and Ferrari is to blame again for all that's wrong with F1 and this world we live in! One team order and Fernando is the new "Schumi", for all those who need someone to blame in order to sleep better at night, after having proved their self-righteousness in the public domain of an F1 forum! What a hypocrisy! What a load of $*&%!

Every single F1 team will issue orders on every single GP, one way or another.

People have been outraged by the blatant way Ferrari and Massa implemented the team orders today, because it was too obvious!

Conclusion: it is less offensive if teams cheat in style, F1 fans do not mind being fooled, but feel their intelligence is being undermined when they are fooled in an obvious way!

The FIA will let team orders go unpunished unless these are too obvious for the average F1 fan to feel offended! =D> Does everyone feel smarter now that it became apparent team orders will only be tolerated if well masked under "strategy", "fuel saving" or "tire issues"?

As I've said before in other threads, there is only one way to actually prevent team orders, and that would be to allow teams to race only one car! Until that happens, F1 fans need to have a good look in the mirror and decide how much their IQ really drops every time they moan about such things being done in a more or less obvious manner..

I see what your saying but I think your missing the point. Its not how they did it that myself and some fans feel insulted by. I dont car how they do it I didnt mind them even doing it.

The bit that i found insulting and made me angry is them coming out to the press and saying it wasnt team orders!! Alonso talking about his 'pass' or him asking did Massa have a gearbox promlem on the radio!! Come on are we supposed to buy all that c**p they think we are that simple??!

Not about cheating in style just if they want to do it so blatently just admit it, not assume we will buy 5 different made up stories!

[komninosm]

I'll only add that the German GP isn't the first time we've had clear team orders since 2002. Off the top of my head, Ferrari used them in Brazil 2007 (Kimi WDC) and China 2008 (for Massa, didn't work out). McLaren used them at least in Hungary 2005 (Montoya letting Kimi by), Germany 2008 (Kovalainen letting Hamilton by) and Turkey 2010 ("Jenson, save fuel"). We've seen the Red Bull incidents, as well. Tell me how this is different from taking off the front wing from one car to put it into the other. None of these incidents were awarded a penalty.

Germany 2008-Hamilton was closing on him at several seconds a lap
Turkey 2010-was not team orders

Germany 2010 Alonso was catching Massa at .3 secs a lap, so, same difference!
Turkey 2010, they were clearly team orders!

Several seconds a lap is not equal to a couple of tenths (also Massa had some faster laps too, but then slowed down). Be serious, Kov didn't stand a chance. He was passed normally.
Turkey 2010 was not team orders. They didn't tell the driver in front to slow down and let the other pass to save fuel. They told both drivers that they had to save fuel which was a simple fact and yet the drivers still fought it out and passed each other twice unlike Ferrari who did this shameful thing again.
The facts do not support your terribly biased opinions. :^o [-X

[ecapox]

Smedley and Massa had that talk on purpose... That tone of voice from Rob,those words, were used just for one thing... To bring Ferrari trouble and for everyone to hear...
And all of this crap from Domenicali and Massa and Alonso only buries them deeper...

Edit cause im an idiot.

Smedley was pissed and i KNOW he said that on purpse. I would have to. THere really is no other way to feel than feel sorry for Massa. He got the short stick. Crummy as that is, that is part of being on a team. Sometimes you dont get to take the last shot, sometimes you are told to pass it immediately, sometimes you are told to ride in the back to keep the group together, sometimes you have to help your advantaged player win. it is part of being in a team. Its a crappy feeling, but you are part of the team. If the coach says sit, you sit. Not doing so will only cause problems...and then you are blamed.

I dont think this would have happened had Massa been ahead of alonso or even closer to the points leader. They need to put all their eggs in one basket and they chose the leader in points for the team.

[komninosm]

So what? That was a very good answer in my view to a silly question. Vettel could not have known half of what the reporters knew about the race. How can he make a judgement without a review and some briefing?

After the boring race I should probably run the Hockenheim 1997 DVD again and watch Berger win a proper race.

His answer about the incident was correct, he didn't know. His obvious digs on Webber with the talk about crashing were the shameful part I was alluding to. [-X

[010010011010]

As I've said before in other threads, there is only one way to actually prevent team orders, and that would be to allow teams to race only one car!

Even that wouldnt completely stop it, there have been cases of inter-team team orders in the past

[WhiteBlue]

So what? That was a very good answer in my view to a silly question. Vettel could not have known half of what the reporters knew about the race. How can he make a judgement without a review and some briefing?

After the boring race I should probably run the Hockenheim 1997 DVD again and watch Berger win a proper race.

His answer about the incident was correct, he didn't know. His obvious digs on Webber with the talk about crashing were the shameful part I was alluding to. [-X

I actually dislike that finger waving smiley you seem to be fond of. Do you think you need take this illusionary moral high ground?

The question was silly as I said and Vettel handled it nicely. He was invited to criticize his competitor and make a judgement while he was having insufficient info about the whole affair. The reporter should have known better than asking this in the first place. Vettel tried a bit of humor on this and you seem to have missed that. Have a beer and relax. Seb is probably the last person whose opinion on the incident had to be taken seriously at the time of the conference. So no harm is done if he goofed a bit around.

[Super racing]

offended by smilies, seriously? [-X [-X [-X

You really dont think Vettel knew what had gone on by then? It was not a bad question by the journo, but I doubt he expected an answer, but was still correct in asking it.

[ringo]

I think Vettel was joking. He was probably trying to break the tension in the room.
He takes digs and make jokes whenever he doesn't win, but gets on podium. I don't take his comments seriously.The questions he was asked by the journos also were crafted to put him in an awkward spot and make some head lines in the week.

He's glad the spotlight is off him and is now on ferrari.

[donskar]

Great race for Ferrari. "Team orders" aside, they finished 1-2. Period. They have worked hard and intelligently to develop their car. It was faster than Red Bull today, and far faster than McLaren

Successful F1 teams often have clear #1 and #2 drivers. And, on the other hand, many successful F1 teams have had supposedly "equal #1s." It's up to the team to decide what they want to do. The exception: when one driver is clearly inferior to the other.

I like Massa a lot, and we often hear that he is a favorite among Ferrari team members. But -- perhaps because of his accident last year -- his performance makes him Ferrai's #2 driver. He should get out of Alonso's way -- or improve his performance. I regret Ferrai reniewed his contract. I'd rather see Kubica.

Looking forward to Hungary!

[raymondu999]

What's happening with Vettel's starts? Usually he has stellar starts. Up until Canada this year, (save for China) he has always either retained his position, or even gained a position, or two (in the case of Malaysia). I always thought the Red Bull's superior traction would see to this.

Actually, on a side note, I wonder if Red Bull's exhaust is feeding directly into the diffuser, if they could do their retarded engine ignition trick on the start, so you actually have some downforce helping traction...

[Poleman]

Its called pressure and lack of expierience...He never was up to that task before(WDC fight)...He'll learn soon i hope...

[raymondu999]

Yes, but he was in a title fight (well, kinda) last year, as was he since the start of the season. He has done stellar starts before under pressure too. Japan 2009, perhaps?

[toshinden]

i still say it's different mate, this time he got all the weight above his shoulder after all those spotlight were shot at him

[andartop]

...
I see what your saying but I think your missing the point. Its not how they did it that myself and some fans feel insulted by. I dont car how they do it I didnt mind them even doing it.

The bit that i found insulting and made me angry is them coming out to the press and saying it wasnt team orders!! Alonso talking about his 'pass' or him asking did Massa have a gearbox promlem on the radio!! Come on are we supposed to buy all that c**p they think we are that simple??!

Not about cheating in style just if they want to do it so blatently just admit it, not assume we will buy 5 different made up stories!

Of course all the excuses they had to make up were silly. But this is purely a result of having a rule to prevent team orders, when it is something that cannot really be enforced. As long as the rule is there, teams and drivers will be forced to make up ridiculous statements such as these. As others have pointed out, team orders can be easily masked, or even agreed upon before the race. Here lies the hypocrisy, as we've seen so many dubious incidents over the last year or so, half or all of which could have been team orders, but no one felt offended as they were not so obvious! In my opinion, it is one and the same thing, only difference being that the more naive or less knowledgeable fans may feel smarter if they are fooled in a not so obvious manner..

I don't see how you can have a team sport without team orders. Some people argued that Ferrari would still get the same points in the WCC either way, forgetting that the goal for every team is not the WCC but the WDC and WCC! Under the current circumstances, with the standings as they were, Felipe's performances up to now the whole year and all the bad luck of the last races, plus the fact Alonso was indeed faster than Massa but obviously not so much faster as to overtake without taking a risk of getting both of them out of the race, I think it was the sensible decision that most of us would have made if we had to.

Another thing that may have been overlooked is that we don't know whether FA was also following team orders. After the incidents between him and Massa they may as well have instructed both drivers to maintain positions if they happen to be 1-2 unless otherwise instructed. This would explain Alonso's frustration on the radio. Pure speculation, but makes sense.