Yesterday, the World Motorsport Council decided not to give Ferrari further punishment after they were handed a $100,000 fine for using team orders during the German GP. Today, the FIA released the full decision.
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I think Massa's engineer could have told him to "put up a fight" and Massa could have kept Alonso behind for a few laps to make it look a little real.
After all, everyone (teams/drivers) tries to find a way around the rules to get a little advantage over the others. FIA tries to make sure that the rules are not at least blatantly broken, since they cannot police or ban everything. Look at what happens when they heavily regulate: the current cars and engines.
Going back to the topic, though.. Ferrari did exactly the wrong thing by openly issuing a team order and the drivers obeyed them without making it look like racing. That is why they deserve a heavy punishment in addition to the $100k: no points, may be a race ban, or exclusion from constructor's championship.
I wonder if Massa did let Alonso pass him like that to make sure that everyone understood that it was a team order. He definitely sounds pissed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h5nrHybFes
Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense. Carl Sagan
When team-order are obvious like this, the stewards should issue a stop-and-go penalty in the pitlane for both drivers. After the race a fine can still be handed out to each driver and the team. It will show to all spectators immediately that the action is comdemned and found to be illegal. Now, people not (actively) following the sport might have no clue on what the WMSC will decide.
I am so sorry that this has to happen for Felipe... and indeed Kimi.
Somehow Ferrari has decided to oust a former champion and move aside a serious title contender to put this crybaby in the #1 seat. Is the Santander money really that important or is it management stupidity?
Probably both.
People didn't like Schumacher partly for this reason, and yet even he has shown the grace to treat Felipe as an apprentice (if not a competitor). They actually got quite a good relationship and Felipe were willing to help Michael in reasonable circumstances. Also, despite asking for #1 status, Schumacher cared about the team. He had a large part to play in resurrecting the champion team within Ferrari. When he joined them, he didn't win at once, but the team grew with him.
On the other hand, what is Alonso? I'm repeating my posts elsewhere but here's his track record:
1. Whining about not getting support from the team when Fisichella was leading some race in which he was 6th or sth, when he was actually leading in the WDC points comfortably.
2. Going to McLaren and destroying the team by backstabbing them in the spygate, after learning he's not the favourite over Hamilton.
3. Coming back to Renault and threatening he'd go if the team doesn't grab 4th place by year-end.
4. Walked away after putting Pique Jr.'s (and Briatore's) careers in shambles.
(Now, don't tell me Alonso has nothing to do with #4. If he hasn't threatened hard enough for something to be done, they wouldn't have gone that far to crash a car. He walked away because he didn't even need to get his hands dirty... Flavio took the hit by doing that for him!)
Conclusion: He's selfish and is out there only for himself. To work with him, the entire team, and I mean both garages, needs to be built to his desire. And he's witty enough to stab you at the back and take flight once he smells trouble or sees something he doesn't like.
It's a shame Felipe has to sit #2 to such a person.
To all people making reference to other sports / racing categories: There is no "team strategy" in an F1 race. I highly doubt if you gain anything in F1 with any kind of "teamwork" or "formation". For one, teammates don't deliberately come together for slipstreaming or anything like that, so any comparison to the ovals or bike racing is moot. Analogies to team sports like baseball or American football are totally irrelevant - in those sports the prize goes to the team and not a player. In F1, the driver owns the win, the points and ultimately the crown.
So that leaves us with one thing - "team strategy" means "team preference" and nothing more. In theory it gives the team a better chance at capturing the WDC, and/or to feature the driver with more sponsorship backing. Another way to call this is RACE FIXING.
Gentlemen, if you love this sport, don't tell me "this rule is not enforcible" or "it has been around for a long time" blah blah. Ask yourselves in the heart: Is this what you want to see in F1??
By the way. I just saw this video (somehow flipped)... BBC commentators tell that this is a team order right away.
Smedley to Massa: "Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm this is our message?"
BBC guy: "I think we understood it. Don't we?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W__dzx1Gz2k
Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense. Carl Sagan
Gambling is a leech industry that should have no impact on the governing of Formula 1. All team points should be deducted.
But to be honest Ferrari have done themselves more harm than any punishment from the FIA could achieve. It damages the brand and the spirit of racing, and it makes Ferrari fans like myself feel somewhat ashamed.
It gets funnier as Schumacher pipes his opinion in...
"Only one can win the World Championship and by the end of the year if you think you could have lost the Championship by exactly those points, you will ask yourself - and all the fans, the TV, the journalists and so on will ask - why do you do so?"
Beautifully summed up in the Telegraph:
'Here's an easy way to decide debates about sporting morality. 1. See which side Michael Schumacher's on. 2. Take the other side. Rarely will you be in the wrong.
It was a disgrace. For years, we have been trying to remove team orders/driver prioritization in Formula One; unless the other driver is not in contention (mathematically) for the championship.
Massa was given a direct order to understand that he should let Fernando Alonso pass which is a big piece of crap.
When RB let MSC (in Ferrari) pass during the Austrian Gran Prix back in the early 2000s, correct me if I'm wrong, they were handed a 1,000,000 Euro or USD penalty and some more. And as a result, TEAM ORDERS were banned in F1.
NOW, why is it that they get a lesser penalty given that the rules (BAN ON TEAM ORDERS) have already been created.
People could debate that driver 1 put save fuel 'setting' and driver 2 putting it to a richer mixture in contrasting team mate strategies be understood as race strategies with strong team order undertones. but still, these are not blatant, 'get the f*** out of my way' kind of orders.
McLaren had one case of that his year and for Button to pass Lewis then Lewis to pass Button, he overtook Button. A RACING OVERTAKING maneuver. Not a shameless backing off the throttle.
THE BEST PENALTY WOULD BE DISQUALIFICATION FOR FERRARI IN THE HOCKENHEIM GP and a EUR 2,000,000 FINE.
It's bullsh*t. And Jean Todt, if you're listening show me where you really stand. FIA or the red?
and if Ferrari, is saying that its the best result for the TEAM.
then what difference would it make if Massa won and Alonso second. It would be the same amount of TEAM points; its not like if Fernando wins there will be an additional point because he won. I'll put it like this, Ferrari bastardized the rules and know the Jean Todt is up there. JEAN TODT SHOW ME WHERE YOU REALLY STAND!
If this happened to McLaren, they would be banned from F1 for 702947202835400383723032 years.
Just to point out something I forgot, so that my comments don't get "anti-Ferrari bias" motives label.
I'd like to see Red Bull taking the title this season, and 1-2 for Ferrari was what I hoped to remain on this race since Vettel was 3rd and Red Bull's only rivals Mclarens behind him.
I really wouldn't have anything against Ferrari winning this race, Massa winning, but the way team took him secure victory is just disgusting.
sorry there..You think this is predominantly a sport? Look at the outfits 400+ employess to have two cars on the grid ....the romatic times ,if these ever were are long gone.
this is Ecclestiones Business ,and in his slipstreem a lot of people have managed to become rich ....for this you need a spectacle ,were any news is good news.
In between there is 2 hours of racing ....for the fans.
forget about giving something back to the fans... would you think Vettel would pay for
having a drive around heppenheim in an old Redbull? that is a big promohappening for REDBULL who sells energy drinks it is marketing ,and the drivers we are made to admire are marionettes of this pr show at best ..
Personally i thouhgt it was sickening. Found it sickening in 2002 in Austria, found it sickening in 2005 in USA (But the Michelen Gate was masking that one for the most part) also hated it in 1997 when Hakkenien got priority over DC and the same feelings cropped up at the next GP (altho diffrent season) in 1998 in Austrailia.
Team orders like that should be eliminated, but yes there is team prioritisation, im not that nieve. As Schumacher said after the race, there is a classy and non-ovious way to do it, and that way wasnt. If they wanted to make it classy and non-ovious Massa should have run wide, looking like a mistake as well, they had arround 4 seconds on Vettel at that point. As for the radio transmissions, it shouldnt have been Rob Smedley that made the call, it should have been Dominicali or Chris Dyer. Or the alternitive way could be to have put Massa on fuel saving mode, more so that it hinders his speed, and Alsonso overtakes.
On the way it was done, id give Ferarri a massive penalty, suspend them for 3 races. This is just as bas as Singapore 2008 in my mind, this is a race fix. Renault would have been excluded for the rest of the season on this one, McLaren would have been dumped out for eternity.
Im not sure what way we can go on this one, exclude radios?? That raises saftey concerns. Open source telemetry to be able to see whats actually gone on?? Make contract terms open and standardised for all drivers??
Im not sure... Im just dismayed, and hope theres a calm and clear way to try and find a way out of this one.
The amount of time and money that F1 has spent on increasing the number of overtaking opportunities in a race over the years is staggering. Changes to the circuits, reducing the width of cars, larger front wings, technical working groups, KERS, etc.
Now we have the re emergence of Team Orders that could effectively reduce overtaking possibilities by half!
For the rest of the season and may be next year we now know that the Ferrari's aren’t racing each other and their finishing positions will be contrived. Massa will not attack Alonso, and will give up his position if required, but maybe not in such an obvious way. If these team orders extended to the rest of the grid we the ‘paying viewers’ would end up with a procession.
And Ferrari are the team that wants to run a third car! Maybe one car per team is the way forward.
Rob W wrote:It gets funnier as Schumacher pipes his opinion in...
"Only one can win the World Championship and by the end of the year if you think you could have lost the Championship by exactly those points, you will ask yourself - and all the fans, the TV, the journalists and so on will ask - why do you do so?"
Beautifully summed up in the Telegraph:
'Here's an easy way to decide debates about sporting morality. 1. See which side Michael Schumacher's on. 2. Take the other side. Rarely will you be in the wrong.
manchild wrote:I'm not RB team fan, it's just that Newey made real masterpiece and the reason I'm following F1 is technology. Vettel or Webber I don't care.
+1 Neweys car is a real highlight ....but both Webber and Vettel are not convincing to me, but in a ways it lifts Neweys achievement even more so ..be it.
