Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

[marke21287]

Hey Guys,

There should not be a penalty. Teams invest millions in F1 to get the best result and that includes running two cars. They should be able to use there two cars to there best advantage to secure maximum points for both championships.

The reality is that a rule exists however stupid it is, and the mistake Ferrari made was to not have Massa just out break himself and Alonso would have been through and then this whole discussion would not have taken place!!!

The real problem here is that as much as I like Massa he has caused this uproar. He is paid a salary, a substantial salary which makes him a Ferrari employee and thus should follow company instructions.

Most of us work for an employer and our role is to deliver what our management expect of us - if we were to behave like Massa we would find ourselves in a disciplinary. He should too.

[gcdugas]

It was a disgrace. For years, we have been trying to remove team orders/driver prioritization in Formula One; unless the other driver is not in contention (mathematically) for the championship.

Massa was given a direct order to understand that he should let Fernando Alonso pass which is a big piece of crap.

When RB let MSC (in Ferrari) pass during the Austrian Gran Prix back in the early 2000s, correct me if I'm wrong, they were handed a 1,000,000 Euro or USD penalty and some more. And as a result, TEAM ORDERS were banned in F1.

Calm down... Obviously you haven't read all the facts or posts Re: the $100K being a light fine...

I read on the Joe Saward blog that $100K is the max the stewards can mete out. After that it must go to the WMSC for a stiffer penalty. So right now it is as stiff as possible and awaiting further review.

And also from your post we can deduce that Ferrari was fined $1M back in 2002 for something that wasn't even against the rules at the time. Actually the FIA fined them for a violation of podium decorum because MS put RB on the top step of the podium during the celebration... something that still happens often (and is unpunished) when teammates pose for photographers etc. So Ferrari got a stiff fine for something that was allowed at the time because it was done in an ugly way with RB slowing at the very last corner of the A1-ring. I think the lesson here is that the teams must do it in a less obvious way to appease simpleton fans who upset easily. Learned fans who know the real ins and outs of the sport will know that Kovi let Lewis by or FM let Kimi by etc. But for the dopes who refuse to accept the reality that the title campaign is a season long affair... well the teams must be more subtle. Too bad the teams can't be more open. The fans demand a charade and that is a travesty. That is why the world is so messed up... the people demand a fantasy... free healthcare... sure just let the gov't do it all. Fantasy.

[Just_a_fan]

I think we can now see why Ferrari were always loathe to let their radio transmissions be heard outside of the team...

[gcdugas]

Hey Guys,

There should not be a penalty. Teams invest millions in F1 to get the best result and that includes running two cars. They should be able to use there two cars to there best advantage to secure maximum points for both championships.

The reality is that a rule exists however stupid it is, and the mistake Ferrari made was to not have Massa just out break himself and Alonso would have been through and then this whole discussion would not have taken place!!!

The real problem here is that as much as I like Massa he has caused this uproar. He is paid a salary, a substantial salary which makes him a Ferrari employee and thus should follow company instructions.

Most of us work for an employer and our role is to deliver what our management expect of us - if we were to behave like Massa we would find ourselves in a disciplinary. He should too.

I agree to a point. Massa should have been more subtle because the world is full of simpleton dopes. Fernando is a whinger etc. But there is also a time for the fans to grow up and accept reality. The rule is stupid and it is unenforceable. It rewards those crafty enough to mask their maneuvers and punishes those who are more open and honest about their maneuvers which is the opposite of what "sport" is all about. BTW, "sport" is also about sacrificing for the greater good... which is the lesson that parents should teach their kids when they ask about this. It makes the sacrificer more of a hero, not less.

[marke21287]

So all you Hamilton supporters, if Hamilton was in that Alonso Ferrari on Sunday and Massa go the instruction to let Hamilton through to ensure the team improves their chances of winning the Drivers F1 title would you all be as anti-Hamilton???? I think not.

[mep]

If I had been in Massas position and got the call to let Alonso pass by I would have done it exactly like this. Drive as obvious as possible to the side so that the hole world sees you do so on command.

[marke21287]

If I had been in Massas position and got the call to let Alonso pass by I would have done it exactly like this. Drive as obvious as possible to the side so that the hole world sees you do so on command.

And if I was your boss I would fire you for not acting in the interests of your employer.....

[ESPImperium]

What if, what if... A fan decided to take the FIA, Ferarri and FOM into a court room and sue for fraud??? The fraud beind being decived of a race that could have seen Massa and Alonso have a ding-dong wheel to wheel battle???

[Just_a_fan]

And if I was your boss I would fire you for not acting in the interests of your employer.....

I can see the headlines now - "employee sacked for not breaking the rules"

Would be a nice employment tribunal win for the employee ...

[gridwalker]

A simple punishment : they are ruining the "spectacle" for millions of TV viewers and the TV stations pay handsomely for such a privilege, so strip them of their TV money and hand it out amongst the less controversial teams

[gcdugas]

What if, what if... A fan decided to take the FIA, Ferarri and FOM into a court room and sue for fraud??? The fraud beind being decived of a race that could have seen Massa and Alonso have a ding-dong wheel to wheel battle???

The court would laugh at him... as would any bookie. Some people refuse to live in reality. How many times have we heard that instructions were given to the drivers to "hold station" and bring the cars home safe. That is a team order too BTW. It affects the outcome as much as if they are told to switch positions. It assures the team of a certain finish when the drivers could have crashed trying to win.

[Shaddock]

What if, what if... A fan decided to take the FIA, Ferarri and FOM into a court room and sue for fraud??? The fraud beind being decived of a race that could have seen Massa and Alonso have a ding-dong wheel to wheel battle???

The court would laugh at him... as would any bookie. Some people refuse to live in reality. How many times have we heard that instructions were given to the drivers to "hold station" and bring the cars home safe. That is a team order too BTW. It affects the outcome as much as if they are told to switch positions. It assures the team of a certain finish when the drivers could have crashed trying to win.

Ignore what I just said :^o

[dave kumar]

Can someone calrify a few points for me.

1. What is the wording of the rule in question. Does it allow for team orders when only one driver in the team can mathematically win the championship? This is stated in a few posts but is it the rule as it stands now?

2. Can someone propose a way to enforce such a rule? I can't think of a way to stop coded messages to drivers, except may be banning radio communication and that still leaves the pitboard. And we will never be party to the discussions before a race.

[Shaddock]

Can someone calrify a few points for me.

1. What is the wording of the rule in question. Does it allow for team orders when only one driver in the team can mathematically win the championship? This is stated in a few posts but is it the rule as it stands now?

2. Can someone propose a way to enforce such a rule? I can't think of a way to stop coded messages to drivers, except may be banning radio communication and that still leaves the pitboard. And we will never be party to the discussions before a race.

1) There isn't one full stop - it's just accepted practice.

[siskue2005]

If I had been in Massas position and got the call to let Alonso pass by I would have done it exactly like this. Drive as obvious as possible to the side so that the hole world sees you do so on command.

And if I was your boss I would fire you for not acting in the interests of your employer.....

if i was Massa, i would show my finger to the pitwall next time come across the s/f line