Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

[siskue2005]

Can someone calrify a few points for me.

1. What is the wording of the rule in question. Does it allow for team orders when only one driver in the team can mathematically win the championship? This is stated in a few posts but is it the rule as it stands now?

2. Can someone propose a way to enforce such a rule? I can't think of a way to stop coded messages to drivers, except may be banning radio communication and that still leaves the pitboard. And we will never be party to the discussions before a race.

1) There isn't one full stop - it's just accepted practice.

Article 39.1, which bans team orders says
"team orders which influence the race results are not allowed/banned"

[shamikaze]

I'm pretty sure Todt is sitting next to his telephone awaiting calls from everyone pondering what to do with this little mess. The beatifull irony that he now needs to oust ferrari for something he did himself in his days ? (Not that I truly believe in karma, but he's getting his one come full circle now

The options available:
* Bigger fine (earlier quote of 1m USD for Schumacher / Barichello incident uplifted using indexation)?
* Points removed for team and both drivers (Massa because he executed the order, Alonso for crying to get it arranged)
* (multiple) Race ban
* Probation-period (Length ?)
* Do nothing
* If any I missed, pls feel free to add to make a complete list

If he wants to show (and I think he needs to) that he is the FIA leader he proclaimed he was to be, he needd to do all of the above.

BUT

What will he do : The WMSC is not governed by Todt, so apart from a public statement condemning the behaviour, we should not expect much from Todt. I would also expect a similar statement from Ecclestone, but he needs to be carefull to not thread to much on the toes of the bigger sponsors that of teams and GP's that get him so much money...

It's up to the WMSC to decide on the penalty and for us to ponder. My hopes are pinned on a big fine (fully donated to green-energy racing series to underline the green-image of motorsport), points-removal of both drivers (for reasons stated above) and elimination of Ferrari of this years constructors-title and a probation period of 1yr. However, I am realistic, and most likely (if anything), it will be a fine and points (team-only).


Team-orders should not be used if both cars are in a consecutive position (i.e. 1 and 2) since the points-total does not differ. It is used to prefer one driver over the other. And this in my humble opinion should not be done. Team-orders would be "less intrusive/obvious" if they are used in a defensive way, but then again the driver in question should know this themselves to drive defensively to fend-off an points-contender in the championship for his colleague. The best way to remedy this imho opinion is to open the contracts for review by FIA so they know the clauses.


As a last note/remark:
I am still baffled why the stewards / race-control did not react on this very obvious "order" during the race itself. A stop-and-go penalty in the pit-box would have killed it instantly and saved everyone major grief and hassle.

[mep]

If I had been in Massas position and got the call to let Alonso pass by I would have done it exactly like this. Drive as obvious as possible to the side so that the hole world sees you do so on command.

And if I was your boss I would fire you for not acting in the interests of your employer.....

Seems like Massa’s boss is not that smart because they said thank you and sorry over the radio but who knows what happens behind closed doors. Do you think they will even blame Massa now that it was not hidden enough? Would be really poor for Massa. First he has to go aside and then he gets bashed because it was to obvious.

[HVS5b]

Penalty should be:

-no points for team OR drivers
-6 race ban suspended for 12 months
-monetary fine

That manouevre sickened me to the teeth and has taken the shine off what has been a brilliant season so far.

I just really hope Ferrari get their cumupance in due course

[ESPImperium]

The penalty id like to see is this, if i were the WMSC:

* Ferarri stripped of points in Constructors title (But drivers keep their points)
* Monetry fine of $10million
* 1 Race suspension with a futher 5 race suspension held for a probation period of 3 to 5 years (Depending on how they pleed)
* Clarification on the rules as well, as follows;
- Teams can have team orders only in the last 3 GP every year
- Drivers have to be told any team orders by team principle, not engineer.
- Stewards have to make decisions about investigations after race, unless its in the last 8 laps, in whitch they have exactly 20 minuites after the race to notify investigation status. This allows Investigation to be made, punishment notified and driver to take punishment in a decent ammount of time.
- Stewards that make investigations inside race within 2 laps of offence with punishments to be made within 5.
- If there has been team orders made, the only punishment avalable in race is a 25 second stop-go to ruin the race of both drivers.
- Recomendation of standardised telemetry systems and standardised raidio systems that are open for all to see and hear.

But if there is to be a team order, i call for teams to make it in a coded, classy and non-odvious way. Massa running wide at Turn 2 or 6 or being forced onto a fuel save mode and Alonso to pass on pure speed would have been alot less controvercial.

[marcush.]

what about R.Schumacher not attacking his brother when running close to him in a race ...when frank williams was not impressed by his driver...where is the line you might draw and what is the punishment for it.... you cannot police it and you cannot force massa to fight Alonso.So it was a provocation fro Smedleys and alonsos side but i feel it is indeed more sportsmanship to show .Here we are working as the team giving our better placed driver a shot at the championship ,than telling one driver to turn up his engine the other to turn it down to engineer a swap... or as seen with alonso /Massa in the first race of the year with a pitstop ...

[WhiteBlue]

The penalty for Ferrari should be felt, so substantial constructor points or double digit millions of dollar should be taken away from them.

Alonso needs to give up the seven points he got and give those back to Massa.

Massa and Demenicali obviously lied to the stewards. That needs to get penalized as well. I suggest money again.

Team order rule needs to be abolished.

[andrew]

Team order rule needs to be abolished.

Tha'll never happen. 2 reasons:

1. The teams will never agree to it,
2. Physically impossible.

[xpensive]

Not really sure what WB means, but I never saw anything ethically wrong with team-orders, bring them back, equal for all.

[alberto222mx]

Mandatory
- No points for Ferrari from this GP, including constructors and drivers championships.
- Probation-period for the rest of the season.
- Fine for at least 10m usd, and no tv earnings for this season.

Optional
- Massa is allowed kick Alonso´s balls in next press conference, giving him a true reason to cry like a baby.
- Domenicali is forced to wear a big nose for being such a big lier.

[Dukeage]

ESPImperium posted what he thought would be the appropriate penalty, I'm going to post my tuppence on this. I have considered the penalties McLaren got for Ferrari's poor information security (a less serious matter), but am also bearing in mind I am not engaging in a witchhunt. There is strong overlap between our two proposals.

• Disqualify both Ferrari cars from the race.
• Award a points penalty of 125 points for the team, if that's not possible kick them out of the WCC this year as per McLaren.
• Cash fine of 15 million USD. That's around 9.5 million GB pounds, or €11.5m - I'm surprised the FIA don't fine teams in Euros bearing in mind the teams are all based in the European continent and the FIA are based in Paris.
• Give the team a six race ban suspended for three years, as per Renault and Crashgate.
• Ban Fernando Alonso (who appeared to order the manouvre) for six races, four of which suspended.
• Ban Felipe Massa (who carried it out) for four races, three of which suspended.

As ESPImperium pointed out, a standard telemetry and radio system with universal access is a good idea. They could use off the shelf gear from MES, MOTEC or Pi Research. It's something I've thought would be a great idea for a while, it would also be good for use on the TV pictures - there needs to be far more data of that kind used.

[spinmastermic]

Ferrari won't get a race ban. Bernie wouldn't allow it.

[Dukeage]

I doubt they will get one - I didn't propose one either (just a suspended ban). Both drivers should get bans though - two race for Alonso, one for Massa.

[WhiteBlue]

Ferrari won't get a race ban. Bernie wouldn't allow it.

A ban is an inappropriate sanction anyway. Not only Bernie would see this. I think that Bernie will also push for the abolishing of the team order rule and he could have Todt and Ferrari as an ally.

I must confess I would agree with anyone who thinks that (abolishing the rule is the right thing). We make people call it a team, we say it's got be a team. I believe what people do when they are inside the team, and how they run their team is up to them. That's my opinion. As far as I'm concerned a team is a team, and they should run it whichever way they want to run it. Nobody should interfere as to how they run their team. But of course if they do something that's dangerous then obviously they're going to be in trouble, otherwise get on with it.

[xpensive]

This rule against "team-orders", introduced in 2002, was deemed to be unenforceable from day one, just hypocrisy, ditch it.