Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

[mx_tifoso]

Bernie speaks the truth, at least today. There won't be any more penalties for Ferrari, nor would they merit them. I think that everyone who is crying murder should get real and see this for what it really is, just another team decision that benefits the clear leader within the team. It's been done before and it'll be done again, and rightfully so. It's a team sport.

[WhiteBlue]

There won't be any more penalties for Ferrari, nor would they merit them. I think that everyone who is crying murder should get real and see this for what it really is, just another team decision that benefits the clear leader within the team. It's been done before and it'll be done again, and rightfully so. It's a team sport.

You just forget that the rule is still there and needs to be enforced regardless of future decisions on abolishing it. So the FiA will have to take away the illegally gained advantage of 7 points for Alonso at least. If they do not do that they make themselves the laughing stock. You cannot allow Ferrari to break a rule, fine them a ridiculously small amount of money and allow them to keep the proceeds of the rule breaking.

Any change to the rule must be implemented after the transgression has been dealt with.

[andrew]

The big problem as I see it is that all the teams have got away with team orders for so long it is very difficult if not impossible for the FIA to issue any significant punishment. So many teams have been got away with it previously that FIA are in a weak position.

I see this as a problem inherited from the previous FIA administration being happy to allow team orders to be used. Personnally, I want the ban to remain in place so that we have a better chance of seing proper racing with real overtaking. Unfortunately it is an unworkable rule as demonstrated by the teams that have got away with implementing team orders, and the weak penalty issued to Ferrari.

Whilst F1 is a team sport, consider that Ferrari achevied the same amount of points regardless of driver order. The only plausible reason for this is Spanish driver, Spanish title sponsor and Spanish race sponsor. Ferrari are so far behind in the championship they are not going to win, they got lucky this weekend. Sadly they have got away with it and will do it again and again, as will all other teams.

[mx_tifoso]

Of course you can allow Ferrari to get away with it, just as McLaren, BMW, and possibly RBR did in the past. And I didn't forget about the rule, it's just that I didn't give much importance. This isn't as big of a deal as it's made out to be, although had Massa not acted like a "slapped rat" it wouldn't have been as dramatic.

[andrew]

Very true. Massa was very out of character. He always seems pretty cheerful no matter what the situation. Given the clearness of Smedley's radio transmission, I wonder if this was planned before the race and someone decided "you mess with us, we'll mess with you". Just seems strange the way the instruction was made so obvious, then the pass was blatant. Either way, I doubt he will be too popular in Maranello right now.

[Miguel]

Formula 1 is a team effort of a few hundred people materialised in two men repeatedly describing a simply connected surface (except perhaps Suzuka) every fortnight. Most of the time they run in the wrong direction (clockwise).

Someone in this thread said that maybe team orders shouldn't be banned when the leading driver is 25% points ahead and half the season is gone. I guess that fellow poster knows this was the case in Germany (race 10/19, 98 points vs 67). Many people don't realise the difference between being 34 and 41 points behind with 8 races to go. This could very well mean that we might see a thrilling season finale.

Finally, I like the cycling analogy. Maybe you don't follow cycling. Cool. In teams with a top sprinter (HTC with Cavendish, for example), one of the key roles is played by the "launchpad". The launchpad as a cyclist is a pretty decent sprinter himself. The role of this guy, in a sport that only writes down the names of the riders as the winners, is choosing an aperture in the sprint, and start racing almost as hard as possible from about 1km... with the top sprinter behind him. This guy should be exhausted right at the moment at which the top sprinter would choose to launch his attack. In HTC Columbia, this role is played by Mark Renshaw, BTW. Oscar Freire's (3 time world champion) former launchpad is ex-cyclist Pedro Horrillo, who now writes for El País.

There's also the case of teams fighting for the General Classification in 3-week races. One of the teammates is usually tasked with dropping by in mountain stages, take water bottles from the team car and then riding up by himself to pass the bottles to the other riders. Let me tell you that after this effort no one has the strength to fight for the stage. Also, the henchmen will drop their pace to a leisurely level once they cannot help their leader, because it is unwise of them to spend their forces like that in a 3-week race.

How do they solve this? At least in the Indurain times, all the money earned by each rider was equitatively distributed amongst all riders. There is a reason why punters didn't really think of Cadel Evans as the top favourite for the Giro: a weak team.

[gridwalker]

I think that Alonso should just apologize ... (NSFW)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAQU5Y-f ... re=related[/youtube]

[WhiteBlue]

Of course you can allow Ferrari to get away with it, just as McLaren, BMW, and possibly RBR did in the past. And I didn't forget about the rule, it's just that I didn't give much importance.

The job of the FiA is to make the racing as safe as feasible and ensure a level playing field for all competitors. They would be doing a very bad job if they let one competitor - Ferrari/Alonso - get away with seven points earned by an illegal move.

Most likely McLaren/Hamilton and Red Bull/Vettel will be the competitors in the final championship race. The three drivers are all within 3.2-4.0 odds at the moment for winning the championship. So from todays point of view one has to expect that very few points could make the difference in the end between winning and loosing the WDC. Alonso has aquired seven points by illegal team order. If they are not taken away the FiA will allow Ferrari to manipulate the championship by illegal action. They cannot allow that to happen. The scandal that would break loose would be beyond imagination. The rule can be changed for the future but the proceeds from breaking the rule cannot remain with the rule breaker.

It is the nature of WMSC sessions that the competitors are invited to make their contributions to the proceedings. So McLaren and Red Bull will be there making their point. I think they will make sure that Ferrari will not be able to sweep this transgression under the carpet and get away with an illegally gained advantage.

[timbo]

You cannot allow Ferrari to break a rule, fine them a ridiculously small amount of money and allow them to keep the proceeds of the rule breaking.

But it's a damn fine money source for FIA. Why not?
probably they can introduce a higher fine.

[WhiteBlue]

You cannot allow Ferrari to break a rule, fine them a ridiculously small amount of money and allow them to keep the proceeds of the rule breaking.

But it's a damn fine money source for FIA. Why not?
probably they can introduce a higher fine.

It isn't a question of the fine. Another fine is a completely different issue. The main thing for the competitors is a level playing field. First justice must be done and then a penalty determined.

[Slife]

Perhaps F1 needs to be promoted more as a team sport, then rather an individual sport. That way when team orders happen, there will be less outcry from the fans, as they will see it as a move for the team.

[andrew]

The team scored the same amount of points as they would have if they had not told Massa to let Alonso past. This has nothing to do with it being a "team game" and has everything to do with pleasing Sandtander.

[myurr]

Formula 1 is a team effort of a few hundred people materialised in two men repeatedly describing a simply connected surface (except perhaps Suzuka) every fortnight. Most of the time they run in the wrong direction (clockwise).

Someone in this thread said that maybe team orders shouldn't be banned when the leading driver is 25% points ahead and half the season is gone. I guess that fellow poster knows this was the case in Germany (race 10/19, 98 points vs 67). Many people don't realise the difference between being 34 and 41 points behind with 8 races to go. This could very well mean that we might see a thrilling season finale.

Finally, I like the cycling analogy. Maybe you don't follow cycling. Cool. In teams with a top sprinter (HTC with Cavendish, for example), one of the key roles is played by the "launchpad". The launchpad as a cyclist is a pretty decent sprinter himself. The role of this guy, in a sport that only writes down the names of the riders as the winners, is choosing an aperture in the sprint, and start racing almost as hard as possible from about 1km... with the top sprinter behind him. This guy should be exhausted right at the moment at which the top sprinter would choose to launch his attack. In HTC Columbia, this role is played by Mark Renshaw, BTW. Oscar Freire's (3 time world champion) former launchpad is ex-cyclist Pedro Horrillo, who now writes for El País.

There's also the case of teams fighting for the General Classification in 3-week races. One of the teammates is usually tasked with dropping by in mountain stages, take water bottles from the team car and then riding up by himself to pass the bottles to the other riders. Let me tell you that after this effort no one has the strength to fight for the stage. Also, the henchmen will drop their pace to a leisurely level once they cannot help their leader, because it is unwise of them to spend their forces like that in a 3-week race.

How do they solve this? At least in the Indurain times, all the money earned by each rider was equitatively distributed amongst all riders. There is a reason why punters didn't really think of Cadel Evans as the top favourite for the Giro: a weak team.

The problem with taking Cycling is that those other riders enter each event and each season knowing that they are going to be used in this way and there is only one prize system. In F1 for the most part drivers enter the season thinking they are equal with their team mates and have an equal shot at the title, and there is a constructors championship and a drivers championship.

If F1 is only about the team then scrap the drivers world championship. If you want a drivers championship where the drivers are ranked according to ability (not according to who has the best manager, throws the biggest strop, is sleeping with the title sponsor, etc.) then let the drivers all race on an equal footing. Ferrari denied us, the fans, the chance to see Alonso actually have to earn his 'victory' on track by fighting and defeating all the other drivers. For a race team who claim to be proud of their history they certainly don't seem to have any understanding whatsoever of what racing should be about.

[myurr]

One final thought about how much F1 is a team sport - a driver can win the drivers world championship even if his team only enters a single car for each race. He needs a team behind him, but this isn't a team sport in the sense of football where a lone player wouldn't do very well against a full team of eleven.

[vall]

Feelings aside, does the WMSC have to prove beyond doubt that it was team order? Does anyone know how they work? I suppose they need a proof otherwise why they need so desperately Renault to find the witness X in the Briatore case?