Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

[forty-two]

All the fault was Massa´s stupid attitude of lifting the throttle in an exagerated way and then having a butt face all over the podium and press conference.

My take on how Massa conducted himself for the pass and during the post-race press conference was one of sullen defiance. Sure, he followed team orders, but inwardly was seething in anger at the injustice of it all.

He made it obvious it was a staged pass, he did nothing to defend his actions apart from saying that he's a team player. I believe that altough Massa honored his contract, he made sure the world understood without any doubt that it was a pass ordered by Ferrari management.

I too am coming around to this way of thinking, and a difficult position for the team to have put Massa into, so not too sure what else he could have done BUT nonetheless, he carried out the order eventually and should be punished for it.

I like Massa as a driver and he seems to be a genuine bloke, but there again I like NPJ as a driver and as a nice guy. Both were ordered by their team to break the rules in a fairly serious way (true, NPJs crime was arguably more serious) and both complied. Massa had the sense to make his misdemeanour obvious, while NPJ waited until he was sacked before blowing the whistle, but I don't think it should have cost NPJ his career.

[DaveKillens]

In a court of law (and some are acting as if it was a formal trial) a person can be found guilty as an accessory, even after the fact.

But right now, the regulations are very specific, and it doesn't take a genuis to understand what happened. That is the first point, that Ferrari decided to dismiss this regulation because it did not suit their strategy.

The second point, is if the FIA decide to formally accept that team orders are permissible in Formula One, fine and dandy, get it out in the open for all to see.

I will cancel my trip and tickets to Montreal. I can always go down to the local soccer field on Sunday morning and watch the kids play soccer. At least I will know that's not fixed.

[WhiteBlue]

The FiA confirmed the date for a disciplinary hearing of the WMSC under the sporting deputy president Graham Stoker in Paris on 8th September.

FIA confirms Paris date for WMSC team orders hearing
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The FIA has finally followed up on the Ferrari team orders controversy by confirming that the World Motor Sport Council will indeed look into the affair.

The hearing will take place in Paris on Wednesday September 8. There has been suggestions that it would be added to the agenda of the meeting already planned for Como later that week, but clearly it would have been tricky to get hold of the Ferrari drivers and personnel, who will be busy at Monza from Thursday.

The FIA announcement makes it clear that FIA President Jean Todt personally approved the decision to follow up on the recommendation of the Germn GP stewards that he case go to the WMSC. However he won’t be at the centre of the actual hearing, as his predecessor Max Mosley was in the past. It’s a co-incidence that the first major F1 scandal on his watch involves Ferrari and Felipe Massa, but naturally Todt will be somewhat in the spotlight as things unfold.

The full announcement reads as follows: “On 25 July 2010, on the occasion of the Grand Prix of Germany counting towards the 2010 Formula One World Championship, the Stewards of the meeting, after hearing the persons concerned, noted an infringement by the Scuderia Ferrari of:

- Article 39.1 of the 2010 Sporting Regulations (“Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited”)

- and Article 151 c) of the International Sporting Code (“Any of the following offences (…) shall be deemed to be a breach of these rules (…) any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally”).

“In the light of the information in their possession, the Stewards decided to impose a fine of $100,000 on the Scuderia Ferrari and to forward the dossier to the FIA World Motor Sport Council.

“On the basis of that decision and of the inquiry report, and following the receipt of a report sent by the Stewards to the FIA, the FIA President has decided, in conformity with the new rules of disciplinary procedure adopted at his initiative on 11 March 2010, to submit the case to the judging body of the World Motor Sport Council.

“The disciplinary hearing of the World Council will be chaired by the FIA Deputy President for Sport and will take place in Paris on 8 September 2010.”

The fact that the FiA sets up a separate disciplinary meeting under Graham Stoker for this purpose points to Jean Todt taking this rather serious. I believe that Alonso will have his additional points taken away and Ferrari will receive further punishment.

[raymondu999]

Hey all. Just wanted a clarification here. What are the possible penalties for Hockenheim's team order farce? Not so much what we WOULD LIKE them to get... I know some people are rather extremem and would like to ban them etc

But what are in the regulations of actual possible penalties? Especially now that they have the September 8 hearing in place?

[Pandamasque]

The reason they were fined 100k at Hockenheim is that this is the maximum fine that stewards can issue during the event. There are no regulations as to the WMC decisions, AFAIK. So it could be absolutely anything.

[andartop]

It should be interesting to see how one might actually prove it was team orders. Based on what happened and what has happened between team mates in recent years I would have thought a reprimand would be appropriate. Likely to be something more though, since they made such a huge fuss about it they can't go back now. Hopefully it will not be excluding Ferrari from F1 for 10 years, publicly executing Alonso with a shotgun and officially recognizing poor Felipe as the most likeable F1 driver ever, as some people around here seem to request.

[raymondu999]

Yes but somehow the stewards DID deem them guilty of team orders and putting the sport into disrepute. Right? That's why they got fined 100,000

[raymondu999]

How about a 10/20/25 sec penalty, AND flip the ferrari order the right way around?

[WhiteBlue]

It should be interesting to see how one might actually prove it was team orders.

Rob Smedley made a real dish out of the usual defense by saying sorry to Massa after Massa obeyed. It is also known that Massa had to be told three times before he complied. Why would an information be given three times? Massa's behavior after the race wasn't consistent with the reason he gave for Alonso passing and the traces of his telemetry will show it was a deliberate slow down. It has all the elements of manipulating the race result. If I were in Massa's shoes I would not lie to the WMSC. He could receive a drastic penalty if he did that. It is best to throw yourself to the mercy of the federation as Briatore has shown twice.

Hopefully it will not be excluding Ferrari from F1 for 10 years, publicly executing Alonso with a shotgun and officially recognizing poor Felipe as the most likeable F1 driver ever, as some people around here seem to request.

It will obviously depend of Ferrari's stance. If they confess and demonstrate that it is common practise in the paddock they may get away with just a result correction (swapping result between Massa and Alonso) and a million dollar fine. That was the fine the last time in Austria 2002 and the WMSC cannot go under that IMO.

[lotus7]

The reason they were fined 100k at Hockenheim is that this is the maximum fine that stewards can issue during the event. There are no regulations as to the WMC decisions, AFAIK. So it could be absolutely anything.

I thought once a crime was punished , that's it. Surely you can't go to jail twice for the same crime ? If that was the case , they'd still be hanging Saddam to this day - I wonder how long his neck would be by now......

[autogyro]

This has little to do with breaking the regulation on team orders.
It is an attack against the FIA by Motezemolo and Briatore, to test their strength in the upcoming negotiations on the next concorde agreement.
El Douche and the Godfather verses the world council.
The result of the Paris meeting will ill serve F1 what ever the outcome.

[flynfrog]

It should be interesting to see how one might actually prove it was team orders. Based on what happened and what has happened between team mates in recent years I would have thought a reprimand would be appropriate. Likely to be something more though, since they made such a huge fuss about it they can't go back now. Hopefully it will not be excluding Ferrari from F1 for 10 years, publicly executing Alonso with a shotgun and officially recognizing poor Felipe as the most likeable F1 driver ever, as some people around here seem to request.

I agree there is really no hard evidence that a team order was given. Sure you can speculate that it was all day but its just that speculation. At no point did they say pull over Massa. Granted we all know it was a team order but we have no way to prove it.

[ecapox]

The reason they were fined 100k at Hockenheim is that this is the maximum fine that stewards can issue during the event. There are no regulations as to the WMC decisions, AFAIK. So it could be absolutely anything.

I thought once a crime was punished , that's it. Surely you can't go to jail twice for the same crime ? If that was the case , they'd still be hanging Saddam to this day - I wonder how long his neck would be by now......

As we all know, the FIA has their own set of rules. I think they wanted to fine them more, but couldnt (based on their own rules).

[andartop]

How about a 10/20/25 sec penalty, AND flip the ferrari order the right way around?

Rob Smedley made a real dish out of the usual defense by saying sorry to Massa after Massa obeyed. It is also known that Massa had to be told three times before he complied. Why would an information be given three times? Massa's behavior after the race wasn't consistent with the reason he gave for Alonso passing and the traces of his telemetry will show it was a deliberate slow down. It has all the elements of manipulating the race result. If I were in Massa's shoes I would not lie to the WMSC. He could receive a drastic penalty if he did that. It is best to throw yourself to the mercy of the federation as Briatore has shown twice.

It will obviously depend of Ferrari's stance. If they confess and demonstrate that it is common practise in the paddock they may get away with just a result correction (swapping result between Massa and Alonso) and a million dollar fine. That was the fine the last time in Austria 2002 and the WMSC cannot go under that IMO.

I believe changing the result is out of the question, unless if they disqualify one or both Ferrari drivers, or get to it indirectly by adding a time penalty (ie a 5sec penalty to Alonso).

The argument would be that no one knows what might have happened in the race if the two drivers have not swapped positions: they might have not finished in the same order. I believe swapping their positions would be technically and legally impossible.

If they were to disqualify the two drivers, one could argue that Alonso was 100% innocent: the other guy slowed down and he just overtook him. Hard to prove he was aware of anything. If they disqualify Massa it would be more fair in the sense he was indeed guilty of following team orders - provided they can prove it was team orders. Felipe might say he just upshifted 3 gears by mistake. Maybe because of the stress from being informed 3 times that the following car was faster. However, if they choose to punish Massa there will be public outcry and confusion. If the average F1 fan cannot understand team orders unless it's as obvious as in this case, they 'll surely have trouble understanding why poor Massa the victim was punished further.

If they add time to Alonso the aformentioned argument stands that he was not aware of anything.

If they add time to both drivers and promote Vettel to 1st place that would be manipulating the outcome of a whole championship, and will definitely not go down well with Webber and McLaren!!!

[WhiteBlue]

I thought once a crime was punished , that's it. Surely you can't go to jail twice for the same crime ?

It is not a question of punishment. It is an issue of trial. You cannot be trialled twice for the same crime once you have a final verdict. But that rule does not apply in this case. Stewards of the meeting have a limited authority in the sport's legal system and did not issue a final verdict. They can be compared to traffic cops. They can give you a ticket for speeding. But if they find that you have no papers and look like 15 years old they may hold you for additional action by a proper judge. The judge may find that you are a neglected child with criminal background and send you to an institution. Or he may find that you are 18 years old and have forgotten your papers and fine you for that. So really the thing simply wasn't finished by the race stewards and will be finished by the WMSC.

I believe changing the result is out of the question, unless if they disqualify one or both Ferrari drivers, or get to it indirectly by adding a time penalty (ie a 5sec penalty to Alonso).

The argument would be that no one knows what might have happened in the race if the two drivers have not swapped positions: they might have not finished in the same order. I believe swapping their positions would be technically and legally impossible.

If they were to disqualify the two drivers, one could argue that Alonso was 100% innocent: the other guy slowed down and he just overtook him. Hard to prove he was aware of anything.

If they add time to Alonso the aformentioned argument stands that he was not aware of anything.

I find all this very illogical. What was the objective of the Ferrari team order? Surely it wasn't taking points for Ferrari. The objective was to give Alonso more points that would have gone to Massa without the team order.

It is a principle of law that illegally gained property is confiscated and returned to the proper owner. The same has to happen in this case. Even if the WMSC does nothing else - which I cannot believe - it needs to delete the illegitimately gained advantage for Alonso. The team order distorted the world championship. Alonso got seven points that he did not earn. This has to be set right by taking the points away. The points belong to Massa. They were taken away from him by a forbidden manipulation of the race result. They need to be given back to him. So these two things in my view are simply necessary to negate the race result manipulation.

The question of punishment of the drivers arises. I believe if Ferrari confesses and the drivers do not lie to the council they may go away without penalty. Both drivers have done obvious things that are in violation of the code.

Alonso has asked for the team order publicly in the first place "This is ridiculous". He fell back in the race and quickly closed the gap again to make more pressure on Ferrari to issue team orders. So he was instrumental to bring on the team order and abetting the violation of the rule.

Massa lied to the stewards saying that no team order was given and he did it by his own free will. This is destruction of justice and bringing the sport in disrepute.

So both drivers have violated the conditions of their super license and are punishable. I hope they confess and will evade punishment but I see it entirely possible that they are both punished by a big fine. The WMSC probably wants to avoid influencing the driver championship and both drivers are very rich. They could be in for a million dollar fine.

In the case of Ferrari they have not tried to manipulate the constructors championship. So I do not think that they should receive a penalty that changes the championship result. They should receive a stiff fine. The size of the fine should depend of their cooperation. If they keep lying they could be in for ten million and if they cooperate they could be in for just one.