Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

[raymondu999]

Damn!! And here I was thinking that this could have catapulted Vettel into championship lead if both Ferraris had 25 seconds added (Just kidding, by the way)

[RH1300S]

What should be the penalty?

I think they should swap the places and points back then put Ferrari on a suspended sentence for the rest of the year. I.e. do it again and you will be in very big trouble. This should also be sent to other teams as a warning that future manipulation won't be tolerated.

There is no need to be hard on Ferrari - just un-doing the switch will be enough. Also, there is plenty of evidence that orders have been used by other teams quite recently - Ferrari's biggest crime was to do it in such a way as to anger the fans. Let's be honest, other examples of team play have vanished without murmur.

After all of that blows over someone really needs to review the team orders thing for next year and make a crystal clear decision about what will/won't be allowed.

[747heavy]

Hi WB

just out of interest (as I don´t know), did the FIA changed the points back in 2002?
MS vs. RB

I can follow your line of thought, but did Massa "own" this points for P1 at the time?
For me his P1 was, at the time, a temporary event, which he may have converted into finishing in P1 at the end, but may not.
In this respect, I can´t follow your argumentation as that Massa was the owner of the property (P1). He only would, if he would cross the line in P1 at the ned of the race.

We are splitting hairs here - and fair enough, it´s part of the fun.

I agree with your sentiments regarding the fine (1 Mil $).
For the overall good of the sport (speak for the show), I don´t think they will change
the position of the drivers (this maybe unfair in the eyes of some).
Most likely they will fine Ferrari with money or will take points of them for the WCC.
But this is just MHO - nothing more

[alberto222mx]

did the FIA changed the points back in 2002?
MS vs. RB

I know the question isn´t for me, but the difference is in 2002 there wasn´t a rule that ban the team orders, today that rule exists...

[WhiteBlue]

Hi WB

just out of interest (as I don´t know), did the FIA changed the points back in 2002?
MS vs. RB

I can follow your line of thought, but did Massa "own" this points for P1 at the time?
For me his P1 was, at the time, a temporary event, which he may have converted into finishing in P1 at the end, but may not.
In this respect, I can´t follow your argumentation as that Massa was the owner of the property (P1). He only would, if he would cross the line in P1 at the ned of the race.

In 2002 Ferrari were not punished for team order because the rule did not exist. At that time Schumacher was obviously very embarrassed by the team order that he pulled Rubens up on the top step of the podium. The FiA saw that as a violation of podium protocol and fined Ferrari on that basis one million dollar. Of cause it wasn't really appropriate for the transgression, but it appeased the fans and hacks to some degree. Naturally the positions were not reversed because it wasn't a result of an illegitimate manipulation. Ferrari had the right to do that, it was just very unpopular.

Regarding giving Alonso's illegitimately gained points to Massa I see this as a single action. The position change was illegitimate and so it needs to be reversed. The WMSC cannot consider that Alonso might have passed Massa in another legitimate attempt if the team order had not happened. So for the purpose of the law Massa has to be the winner of the race. At least that is my understanding. Anything else would constitute punishment in my view and not rectifying the manipulation.

[timbo]

The position change was illegitimate and so it needs to be reversed. The WMSC cannot consider that Alonso might have passed Massa in another legitimate attempt if the team order had not happened. So for the purpose of the law Massa has to be the winner of the race. At least that is my understanding. Anything else would constitute punishment in my view and not rectifying the manipulation.

Applied punishment does not necessary undo the effect of rule transgression.

I think if Alonso would be in position to fight for the title, WMSC would not do anything about driver's points. It may deduce Ferrari's points from CC.

I hope WMSC would consider dropping "team orders" rule altogether.

[WhiteBlue]

I think if Alonso would be in position to fight for the title, WMSC would not do anything about driver's points.

Fernando is obviously in a position to fight for the championship, that is a fact. 24% of all F1technical readers expect him to become WDC. That is P2 in the board odds. 14% of the betting money expect Alonso to become WDC which is P3 in the betting odds at the moment. So we can say with some certainty that the FiA will currently consider him a contender as well.

If the FiA indeed does nothing about Alonso's points there will be a massive outcry from McLaren, Red Bull and their fans. IMO it would be a huge scandal for him to keep those illegitimately gained points.

[mx_tifoso]

Wow WB, you're pretty bent on Ferrari getting punished. Almost desperate, one could say.

All of this is bogus as teams should be able to do as they please within their team as long as it doesn't undermine anyone's safety. I don't like that team orders were implemented this early on in the season but it is what it is, and Ferrari were obviously making sure that a lack of a few points wouldn't bite Alonso in the *ss when we reach Abu Dhabi.

[WhiteBlue]

Ferrari have not protested the stewards verdict that they broke the code and manipulated the race result. It becomes a fact. The punishment of Ferrari is also a fact. By comparison to 2002 the penalty is far too small. So yes I think Ferrari needs to receive a larger fine for the rule to work as a deterrent.

Taking Alonso's illegitimately gained points back is no punishment. It is only a necessity to make the playing field level for all.

The team order rule IMO should be abolished, I agree with mx_tifosi. But while it exists it must be upheld.

[timbo]

But while it exists it must be upheld.

It was upheld.
There's nothing in the rule that requires any disciplinary measures.

[mx_tifoso]

Sure, this particular case must be punishable, but only if the FIA decides to go back and investigate and thus punish other cases of "suspected" team orders since 2002. That would make it fair.

[autogyro]

This is exactly why Ferrari made it so obvious over the radio.
Team orders are against the regulations and should remain so. If they are not then it allows the teams to 'fix' the results and F1 can no longer be treated as a sport.
Of course things will still go on in the background but it should be the drivers who decide whether to give a place to a team mate as sportsmen, not the team principles.

Briatore visited Ferrari Marenelo a few days before this issue occured and Montezemolo is looking for somewhere local for his mate to reside.
It should be obvious to any right minded F1 follower, that these two are applying pressure on the FIA through this team order issue. They are all FAR to clever at Ferrari to otherwise give such 'obvious' team orders.
This is all about negotiating power for the new concorde agreement.
El Duche and the Godfather against the FIA world council.

[peteskar]

The teams can not 'fix' the result of the entire race just their team, thus F1 is still a sport. The teams should be allowed to have team orders, it does not effect any other teams and hurts no one execpt the slower driver. If Massa would not have pulled aside would Sebastian Vettel have placed better? No of course not, it sounds like the stewards are bored and need something to discuss

[Confused_Andy]

People may argue that the rules are invalid today and all that jazz but the simple fact of the matter is, Team Orders are illegal, Ferrari ignored that rule knowing full well the implications.

They deserve a heafty punishment, you break one rule you break them all, theres no point going light on the punishment because people disagree with the rule, its a RULE.

[ecapox]

Here is what i believe is going to happen

1. Heavy fine for breaking the rules. Probably in the ballpark of $1,000,000
2. Immediate review of the ban on team orders
3. Team orders will NOT be banned in 2011. Anything done in 2010 needs FULL approval from all teams and RedBull will never agree.

..and i would support all three.