Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

[DaveKillens]

Villeneuve and Pironi ............

[RH1300S]

Wise words as ever Dave

To answer your question:

So what's left, the team is excluded from the Manufacturer's title? Ouch.

Surely a retrospective place swap would work.....Ferrari were 1&2, no one else will be affected.

Ferrari get a very clear message that team orders won't be tolerated.

Then a suspended sentence - something with teeth to deter future orders

[Just_a_fan]

Team orders, including number one and two drivers, has been around forever.

Surely the public naming of a number one and number two driver actually gets around the team orders ruling. There is then a contractural requirement for one driver to help another and no order is required. This is what Ferrari did for Schuie although they sometimes needed to remind Rubens that he was the number two driver e.g. Austria.

If the number two driver always gives his place to the number one driver (assuming the number one car is directly behind the number two car) then it can be argued that 'team orders' as such have not been implemented.

Of course, it does introduce a gray area where the team can state that the driver leading the other in the title race is the defacto number one and thus the other driver will give up his place to assist. This might mean that the number one place could alternate between the drivers throughout the season.

[WhiteBlue]

Both cars and both drivers should lose the points they achieved. I will not make any recommendation, but on the facts at the moment there should have been some sporting sanction and not only a fine. Most teams would like the team orders ban to be repealed, but the rule was designed to meet the needs of millions of fans. In the event that it (team orders) is brought into play, we have to impose a severe punishment.

Max has a very good point that Ferrari should have received a sporting sanction. However contentious the team order rule is, it is in existence now and Alonso gained seven WDC points by an illegal action. The least the other competitors can demand is a verdict by the FiA that restores the drivers championship to the status prior to the illegal manipulations.

I would restore the order the cars arrived in without the team order, Massa ahead of Alonso. And I would dock Ferrari all points from the race for the constructor championship. This way you have no impact on the drivers championship by a penalty and you hit Ferrari were it hurts. Max gets a bit ahead of himself with his proposal to also dock the drivers points IMHO. This may be caused by the prospect to see the horse whisperer receive severe punishment. As much as it would be a welcome joy for Max in his old days in Monaco it may in this case look a bit heavy handed and damage the sporting contest.

On the other hand the WMSC is a very political body and Max may just be flexing his PR muscle to set the stage for the trial. The council is not likely to select the most severe punishment for Ferrari. Todt needs Ferrari on his side as much as FOTA or Bernie needs them for the 2013 CA negotiations. So moderation in punishment is what we are likely to see.

[andrew]

MrM still bumping his gums to anyone that'll listen? Oh dear. MrM knows all about illegal manipulations.

MrM was so keen to jump into bed with various teams that misdemeanors like this have gone unpunished in the past. The precedent has been set and Ferrari will get away with it. Ferrari's lawyers will know this and will get them off the hook.

[bgroovers]

We will soon learn the outcome of the WMSC meeting.

I personally feel that as im sure the majority think that Ferrari and its two drivers should loose all the points gained from Germany as everyone knew that "Team oders" had been implemented. We should not forget that the stweards of the race meeting found them guilty of this already. So really their guilt is not in question just what penalty is appropriate.

There are many, especially in the media and within F1s small world that constantly harp on about team orders rule being unenforcable and some even saying its wrong. Firstly the team orderd rule is correct and has up until this point worked. Teams have shuffled cars during races to do with stratagy and even championship position but never so blatently and synically and then so outrageously patronised the public and every other team by denying it.
What happened in 2007 when massa let kimi by to win the race and the championship is pure logic and underdtanable and accpetable, as is drivers being told to save fuel and hold race positions rather than race and knock each other off however what happened in germany benefitted no one other than alonso. Ferrari say it was best for the team but this is not true. They held 1st and 2nd with massa in the lead just as they did with alonso in the lead so this was not a better result for the team.
Ferraris defence is based on this idea but if anything allowing the faster alsono through could have resulted in a 1st and 3rd if vettel had attacked the "slower" massa. Surely the best for the team would be for the faster alonso to tail gun and defend aginst vettel... In the event Vettel wasnt even close to attacking massa or alonso so again no need to drfend the team position by putting alonso ahead.
How even was massa meant to know that alonso needed to get by to get away from vettel as massa did not have this info to make an informed decision?
It was clear for all to see after the race what had happened and the stewards agreed.
Ferrari must not be let off. they broke the rules. They are not allowed to pit for fuel if the are running out as it is outlawed, the same as team orders are outlawaed so no amount of saying team orders are part of F1 makes a difference.
Damon hill is wrong to say the rule is to vague aswell. Everyone knew what the rule meant and what was acceptable and not.
Maybe a new rule will emaerge from this saying that team oders can be used once one driver is mathamtically out of the championship running. (whiich i believe is what the spirit of the rule was meant to be).
Once again Alonso is at the centre of a cheating scandel. Have we been here before? Just as schumi is acknowledged for going to far on e the race track so alonso will be remebered for his off track behaviour...

[kalinka]

I would restore the order the cars arrived in without the team order, Massa ahead of Alonso. And I would dock Ferrari all points from the race for the constructor championship. This way you have no impact on the drivers championship by a penalty and you hit Ferrari were it hurts.

+1

Except if there will be any evidence that Alonso was initiating this action by insisting to be the No.1 driver. Massa should not get any punishment in any case.

[jddh1]

Let me tell you what the penalty should be:

Penalize the FIA for having a stupid rule in a team sport. Case closed.

[Pup]

I would restore the order the cars arrived in without the team order, Massa ahead of Alonso. And I would dock Ferrari all points from the race for the constructor championship. This way you have no impact on the drivers championship by a penalty and you hit Ferrari were it hurts.

+1

Except if there will be any evidence that Alonso was initiating this action by insisting to be the No.1 driver. Massa should not get any punishment in any case.

At the end of the day, though, it was Massa who pulled over. So while he's very much a victim, it was ultimately his decision. Debates over the appropriateness of the rule aside, if the FIA are serious about team orders, they should apply the punishment where it is most likely to act as a deterrent - with the drivers.

[donskar]

I would restore the order the cars arrived in without the team order, Massa ahead of Alonso. And I would dock Ferrari all points from the race for the constructor championship. This way you have no impact on the drivers championship by a penalty and you hit Ferrari were it hurts.

Excellent idea, WB. It's very harsh, since there is no question that ONE of the Ferraris would have won, with the other second, but rules should be enforced -- or dropped. I'm afraid that there is no answer except to delete the rule. The harsher the penalty, the more the teams will work to establish "code phrases."

[xpensive]

Terriffic idea, this should be xpanded to comprise the entire result of every race, where the race stewards can decide the final order from a stricly fairness perpective by watching the race a couple of times on video?

This way, a hard-fought 15th finish by an HRT could be rewarded a point or two retroactively, wouldn't that be nice?

[Richard]

Yes that is appealing. There could be a bonus point for driver merit awarded to a max of two drivers who finish outside the normal points, or one driver, or none. It all depends on the quality of racing.

[imightbewrong]

No further action from FIA, not surprising really.

[Pup]

Teflonso. I'm beginning to think he's got a deal with the devil going.

[zenithbeach]

how surprising.

i hope alfonso comes fifth in the championships.. or wait, maybe even sixth if massa manages to overtake him. now that would be justice.