Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

[andrew]

Under what charge? It is the TEAM that is in the wrong by allowing this sort of thing to go on. Your boss hands you an advantage on a plate you wouldn't think twice about taking what is being offered would you?

[kalinka]

OK, so I steal your car, and give it to WB. The judge says I have to pay a fine, but WB, since he isn't the one who stole it, gets to keep your car. You'd be ok with that?

To your other point, if there was no evidence, then the WMSC needed to declare them innocent and give them back their money, plain and simple.

+1

Beside that, I don't give a sh*t for FIA decision, but it's just unfair and must be disgusting for the fans of Ferrari and also for general F1. It's just a total ignorance of the global mass of fans, who were Ferrari fans for maybe decades, and Massa fans for couple of years. Ferrari is proving that they don't give a sh*t for the sport, and that can't be undone by FIA decisions. The damage is done already.

[andartop]

This is an unfortunate example Pup. Even in a court of justice there is a basic differentiation between property law and tort law, contract law, trust law, criminal law, constitutional law etc. You can't expect ie a breach of contract and a murder to be judged in the same context or following the same logic. Furthermore, the WMSC is not a court of justice but a sporting regulatory body. The stewards decided to impose a fine to Ferrari as they saw fit at that time. The WMSC was called to decide on further sanctions. They obviously decided there was not enough evidence to warrant further sanctions. I think it is reasonable to assume that if Ferrari wanted to take this further they could, and then they might get their money back. I don't think they will though.

[kalinka]

"The Council have confirmed the $100,000 fine that was handed to the team right after the Grand Prix by the stewards, but no further action is to be taken."

The WMSC confirmed the fine. If there was no evidence, then let's say they could say : "we recommend to refund the $100k fine to Ferrari since there is no breach of regulations. But they didn't.

[Pup]

Under what charge? It is the TEAM that is in the wrong by allowing this sort of thing to go on. Your boss hands you an advantage on a plate you wouldn't think twice about taking what is being offered would you?

I would if I knew I was running a risk of losing points if I got caught. After today I wouldn't, and that's the problem.

I'd be fine with the FIA saying Ferrari were innocent, or that nothing could be proven. But they upheld the fine, declaring them guilty. I'd be fine with the sport lifting the team order ban. I wouldn't agree, but it's not a question of right or wrong, just preference. But we've been given a situation here where Ferrari was allowed, at least for one race, to play under a different set of rules than everyone else and not only profit by it, but make a mockery of the sport in the process. Having determined that Ferrari broke the rule, the very least they should have done - even if they think the rule is the dumbest thing on earth - is given Alonso a time penalty so that he classified as second and no one profited by the transgression. Then go about changing the rule. Heck, swap the points and give them back their money if you want. What matters is that Alonso got seven undeserved points and the WMSC seems to think there's nothing wrong with that.

[jddh1]

This was the correct decision. Absolutely no need for more penalties. All you guys stop crying. Don't be haters. I am a Ferrari fan and I'm known to criticize them when I see them doing wrong, but they did nothing wrong here compared to Macca saving fuel instructions and Red Bull having their code. Let's stop the nonsense and take this rule off the book.

[Pup]

This is an unfortunate example Pup. Even in a court of justice there is a basic differentiation between property law and tort law, contract law, trust law, criminal law, constitutional law etc. You can't expect ie a breach of contract and a murder to be judged in the same context or following the same logic. Furthermore, the WMSC is not a court of justice but a sporting regulatory body. The stewards decided to impose a fine to Ferrari as they saw fit at that time. The WMSC was called to decide on further sanctions. They obviously decided there was not enough evidence to warrant further sanctions. I think it is reasonable to assume that if Ferrari wanted to take this further they could, and then they might get their money back. I don't think they will though.

But the basic premise of the law - that one shouldn't profit from a misdeed - is the same. And it would be hard to argue that the other drivers haven't suffered harm through Ferrari's manipulation of the points.

I don't agree with the idea that there was not enough evidence to warrant further sanctions. In this case there is either guilt or there is not. One cannot issue $50k, or $100k worth of team orders. Personally, I think the fine is the most arbitrary punishment they could give. The advantage gained was in points, not money; so if there is to be punishment, it should be in points as well. At the very least, remove the advantage gained.

[jon-mullen]

This was the correct decision. Absolutely no need for more penalties. All you guys stop crying. Don't be haters. I am a Ferrari fan and I'm known to criticize them when I see them doing wrong, but they did nothing wrong here compared to Macca saving fuel instructions and Red Bull having their code. Let's stop the nonsense and take this rule off the book.

+1, sanity prevails for once. Now they can go write a reasonable, enforceable rule.

[Dragonfly]

This was the correct decision.
.........
+1, sanity prevails for once. Now they can go write a reasonable, enforceable rule.

I second that. The current rule is bad and is in fact an anti-team behavior rule in a team sport.

[DaveKillens]

from the decision, it appears the FIA wants to put this episode to rest. Hopefully, it's all over, dead and buried. Because the fine was not dismissed, it implies Ferrari's guilt. So they didn't escape totally, the 100,000 and this decision cannt be considered a complete exoneration. And the coasdt is not clear, if Ferrari did a repeat I am very sure the FIA would come down on them very hard.

It cost Ferrari a blemish on their reputation, a hundred grand, and a split within the team. What happened in Germany had to sour the relationship between Alonso and Massa, and Ferrari and Massa.

It's appropriate that now the focus shifts towards examining the entire "team order" thing and changing the regulations to reflect the true realities of what is happening in the pits. Let's not be foolish, I do not like team orders but realize that's what's going on, and we need to be aware of it and deal with it realistically.

Despite my personal opposition, the regulations need to be re-written to allow and control team orders, not just throw a blanket over everything and say "you can't do that".

[strad]

This was the correct decision. ........ Let's stop the nonsense and take this rule off the book.

YES...please..start a petition or something..return sanity to F1!!

[andartop]

But the basic premise of the law - that one shouldn't profit from a misdeed - is the same. And it would be hard to argue that the other drivers haven't suffered harm through Ferrari's manipulation of the points.

True. Problem is, the misdeed was conducted by Ferrari and Massa, not Alonso, though he was the one to profit. There have been other incidents in the past where the team was found guilty and fined but the drivers, who benefited, got away with it. Part of the problem is that everybody else is doing it and the WMSC knows it, despite some fans refusing to believe it. The other part of the problem is Massa not admitting he was forced to swap positions.

[vall]

What matters is that Alonso got seven undeserved points and the WMSC seems to think there's nothing wrong with that.

He could have overtaken Massa anyway, you never know.

[Pup]

Problem is, the misdeed was conducted by Ferrari and Massa, not Alonso, though he was the one to profit. There have been other incidents in the past where the team was found guilty and fined but the drivers, who benefited, got away with it.

Yes, but swapping Alonso and Massa's points wouldn't punish Alonso; it would simply restore order. That's why the WMSC decision seems so weird. On the one hand, they're saying Ferrari need to be punished, while on the other rewarding them for what they did. One or the other, that's all I ask.

He could have overtaken Massa anyway, you never know.

But since team orders had to come into play, it's fair to say he couldn't.

[andartop]

Yes, but swapping Alonso and Massa's points wouldn't punish Alonso; it would simply restore order. That's why the WMSC decision seems so weird. On the one hand, they're saying Ferrari need to be punished, while on the other rewarding them for what they did. One or the other, that's all I ask.

I've posted before my view on this: I don't think swapping their positions could even be considered, as no one can say what might or might not have happened otherwise in the remaining laps of the race. Alonso could have overtaken Massa, or they could have crashed like the Red Bull drivers. I understand it seems a fair solution but one cannot rule and punish based on "ifs", "would haves" or "could haves"..
One way to achieve the same result indirectly would have been a time penalty to Alonso, just about enough to get him behind Massa. The problem with that, again, would be that Alonso did nothing wrong!