Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

[Pup]

I'd rather say that, once again, no one can prove that Alonso did anything wrong.

Unfortunately, no one is omniscient, so we can't deal with 'what ifs'. We have to deal with the race as it unfolded, and in that race, Alonso was wrongly gifted seven extra points.

I don't see how this is really in question. One is free to think that the ban on team orders is absurd, but that doesn't mean that the rule isn't currently valid and a team which is caught doing it is free of punishment. The same goes for the argument that 'everyone is doing it'. If others are doing it, then they should be punished as well, not the other way around. Both are cases for leniency, possibly, but not for outright dismissal of the crime.

I think the best one could argue is that Ferrari were the victims of hypocrisy and selective prosecution. But prosecuting only the more blatant transgressions isn't selective prosecution. Were I to get caught speeding at 50kph over the speed limit, I couldn't get off by arguing that the police didn't also ticket everyone who was going 5kph over.

[mep]

Such a shame for the sport. Well can we even call it sport anymore? It is a .... business parade.

I don’t even know what disappoints me most.

- Ferrari and Ferando doing obvious team order without even caring about consequences.

- The FIA not punishing them even after its obvious that they are guilty and there is a rule prohibiting exactly this.

- The strict punishments we see whenever somebody else than Fernando/Ferrari does anything.

- The people around here who even defend Ferrari, Fernando and FIA with ridiculous arguments. On same time those are loudest crying whenever some other driver does anything.

Well yea the worst thing probably really are the guys who still defend them. Fernando, Ferrari and FIA just play their evil game to get money or whatever but the people here one the forum don’t get any advantage by this. They just like to become lied and duped. They deny to think themselves.
Whenever I experience this I see why the world is like it is and I understand that it never will be changes as long as such behaviour is favoured.

A black day.

[andartop]

The key word is hypocrisy Pup. We wouldn't be having this discussion if Ferrari had informed Massa that he needed to save fuel, go to safe mode, conserve the tires or whatever, and Massa and Smedley hadn't decided to pull out a half-baked attempt at gaining some sympathy.. In any case, I'm pretty sure they will find a less provocative way of implementing team orders in the future, like others do, so the punishment and public outcry will have served the purpose of deterring them from repeating the crime, the crime being not their team orders but lack of tact. That seems to be what people want, so there you have it, justice served. Mind you, it's not a case of a more severe infringement (ie going 50kph over the limit as opposed to 5kph) but rather a more obvious infringement (ie going 5kph over the limit and posting a video of it on youtube)!

[hollus]

....The people around here who even defend Ferrari, Fernando and FIA with ridiculous arguments...

Thanks for your understanding and tolerance for everyone's opinion.

[andartop]

There you have it: article 39.1 to be reviewed.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86481

=D>

[strad]

It's a stupid rule that should never have been put in place. IMO

[Goran2812]

....The people around here who even defend Ferrari, Fernando and FIA with ridiculous arguments...

Thanks for your understanding and tolerance for everyone's opinion.

=D> =D> =D> =D>

[Pup]

The key word is hypocrisy Pup. ... Mind you, it's not a case of a more severe infringement (ie going 50kph over the limit as opposed to 5kph) but rather a more obvious infringement (ie going 5kph over the limit and posting a video of it on youtube)!

But I could neither argue that I should be let off because the guy in the next lane got away with going 50kph over the limit because he braked before the cops saw him. Regardless, this is indeed a case of a more severe infringement. Compared to the most common counter-example I've seen, the Heikki/Hamilton incident, both are team orders, but hardly equivalent. Additionally, one is provable and one is not. People get away with stuff all the time, but that's never an excuse for letting the next guy off. We're not dealing with a complex ethical dilemma here; it's pretty cut and dry stuff. You get caught, you get punished; you don't get caught, well, lucky you.

And if you're arrogant and think you're above the law and flaunt your crime for the world to see, then you should be punished all the more. Except in F1, of course.

[BMW_F1]

Good call.. I still don't get the monetary fine.

[andartop]

And if you're arrogant and think you're above the law and flaunt your crime for the world to see, then you should be punished all the more. Except in F1, of course.

Exactly that's why I said all along that Ferrari and Massa should be punished, not Alonso. Ferrari did get a fine. What did Massa get? What was Alonso caught doing? Overtaking? Not slowing down as well?

[mep]

Oh yea Alonso did nothing bad again.
He was just asking for teamorder. Ferrari would not call Massa back if Alonso didn't want it. Its the same story as everybody blames Schumacher for Austria. At least during this time teamorder was not prohibited.
Yea for sure your innocent Alonso in never the one to blame.
It's always just the others.

[donskar]

If I get caught stealing your car, but can pay a fine and get to keep it, is that justice?

No. It's what's called a poor analogy. Ferraris ran 1-2 before the team order. They were 1-2 after the team order (and after being penalized).

If they determined Ferrari were innocent, then ok. If they declared the rule unfair, then ok. But to declare Ferrari guilty, but allow them to reap a reward for breaking the rules? No, that's not justice.

Again, not acceptable. They broke the rule, got slapped on the wrist and the season goes on. Are you able to see the possibility that the trivial penalty is a reflection of what the FIA thinks about the importance of the rule?

[donskar]

Hey guys, it's OK to hate Ferrari. It's a common passion, and one not without some justification.

But don't let your hatred and/or naivete blind you to reality. Team order are common in F1 and have been for a long time. As another poster or two have said so perceptively, Ferrari is guilty of a lack of tact: issuing a team order in plain English rather than using the sort of lame "code" other teams use.

I hate team orders, but I hate getting old and losing my hair, too. I commend Ferrari for telling the FIA, "Here's what we think of this stupid rule." The FIA will apparently reconsider the rule, and I'll go get some more Rogaine.

[manchild]

Jean Fiarrari Todt

[ernos5]