Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

[Pup]

Really? That's your contribution?

[Ray]

Nothing. McLaren did the same between Heikki and Lewis in Germany. The rule shouldn't be there simply because they drivers are employees, and employees are paid to do what they are told.

[Pup]

How Victorian.

That's the image of a driver I want. A guy who does what he's told.

[Ray]

I don't mean in a servant/master kind of way. Just that he works for a team, they all work for a team. You have a boss do you not? If they can win with one driver and not the other why prevent them from making the decision to support one or the other? Why prevent them from using the time and money they invest to it's maximum potential. It's no different than any other team sport. Team orders are stupid. If I were competing in Formula 1 and someone told me I couldn't conduct my team in the fashion that I see fit I'd go find a racing series that didn't have idiots and tyrants running it. I can't believe some of the most successful racers on Earth put up with that ---.

[Pup]

If it's a team sport, then why have a driver's championship? In what other team sport do team mates compete against one another for the title?

That's the irony of that argument - team orders are ok, since it's a team sport; but what's at stake is the driver's championship, which is contrary to the idea of a team sport.

Simple solution: get rid of the WDC. Then we actually do have a team sport, and there will be no incentive for team orders.

[xpensive]

Team orders, first and second drivers, tactics, letting your team-mate by for whatever reason, has always been a part of the sport. Until MrM felt obliged to make a knee-jerk reaction to Austria 2002, when Barrichello let Schumcher by on the last lap, just to please bookies and people who had bet the farm on a Rubens-win without understanding how F1 works.

I sincerely hope they will ditch this stupid and un-enforceable rule asap.

[kalinka]

Yes, the rule maybe stupid, I can agree on that, but the rule is there for now, and you can't argue in front of any judge ( except obviously WMSC ) that the rule is stupid, so let's get on with it...
I'm also sick of Ferrari's "tactics" : when something goes wrong for them they always try to change the rule and not acting by the rule. In current season there was couple of examples for that. Where was Ferrari since 2002 ? They have at least to say strong lobby in the sport, so why don't they made a campaign against this rule if it's sooooo unfair ? Beacuse they have no interest in it until this season. It's a simple double-standard thinking.

[CHT]

fans = sponsors = budget = teams = F1

No fans = No F1

[myurr]

Team orders, first and second drivers, tactics, letting your team-mate by for whatever reason, has always been a part of the sport. Until MrM felt obliged to make a knee-jerk reaction to Austria 2002, when Barrichello let Schumcher by on the last lap, just to please bookies and people who had bet the farm on a Rubens-win without understanding how F1 works.

I sincerely hope they will ditch this stupid and un-enforceable rule asap.

Then scrap the drivers championship and make it a true team sport. You cannot have a valid drivers world championship when half the grid are not allowed to compete.

Alonso had his chance on track and failed to make it stick. If he truly was faster then he should have been challenging Massa for the win but instead he took the cowards victory. It may be difficult to police but it should have no place in F1. Our only hope now that the FIA have proved themselves to be toothless in enforcing their own rules is that the negative publicity around Alonso's great and momentous 'victory' will cause Ferrari to stop and think about their public image.

[kalinka]

I'm sorry I have to steal this comment from another forum, and I think it describes the public opinion on this quite well in USA :

"I find it ironic since the rule was written SPECIFICALLY because of Ferrari's past conduct completely embarrassed F1. It was so bad that the sports commentators in the US, sporting snide grins reported on it throughout every network with a must-do comment "This could never happen in NASCAR." So now Ferrari broke the rule established because of them and it's somehow OK? Hmm... maybe I SHOULD start watching NASCAR instead?"

So this case is quite "good" advertising for the future of F1 in USA.

[CHT]

Then scrap the drivers championship and make it a true team sport. You cannot have a valid drivers world championship when half the grid are not allowed to compete.

Alonso had his chance on track and failed to make it stick. If he truly was faster then he should have been challenging Massa for the win but instead he took the cowards victory. It may be difficult to police but it should have no place in F1. Our only hope now that the FIA have proved themselves to be toothless in enforcing their own rules is that the negative publicity around Alonso's great and momentous 'victory' will cause Ferrari to stop and think about their public image.

Just got to accept the fact that F1 is not a SPORT, it is a multi million dollar show business that is controlled and run by multi millionaires who profit from suckers like us.

The toothless ones are the fans who pay to watch f1

[strad]

Then scrap the drivers championship and make it a true team sport. You cannot have a valid drivers world championship when half the grid are not allowed to compete.

Alonso had his chance on track and failed to make it stick. If he truly was faster then he should have been challenging Massa for the win but instead he took the cowards victory. It may be difficult to police but it should have no place in F1. Our only hope now that the FIA have proved themselves to be toothless in enforcing their own rules is that the negative publicity around Alonso's great and momentous 'victory' will cause Ferrari to stop and think about their public image.

Just got to accept the fact that F1 is not a SPORT, it is a multi million dollar show business that is controlled and run by multi millionaires who profit from suckers like us.

The toothless ones are the fans who pay to watch f1

Don't sugar coat it CHT

[myurr]

Then scrap the drivers championship and make it a true team sport. You cannot have a valid drivers world championship when half the grid are not allowed to compete.

Alonso had his chance on track and failed to make it stick. If he truly was faster then he should have been challenging Massa for the win but instead he took the cowards victory. It may be difficult to police but it should have no place in F1. Our only hope now that the FIA have proved themselves to be toothless in enforcing their own rules is that the negative publicity around Alonso's great and momentous 'victory' will cause Ferrari to stop and think about their public image.

Just got to accept the fact that F1 is not a SPORT, it is a multi million dollar show business that is controlled and run by multi millionaires who profit from suckers like us.

Close but not quite. F1 is a multimillion dollar show that masquerades as a sport by involving sportsmen and claiming open competition. I fully understand that to Bernie, most of the FIA, and most of the team bosses F1 is just a show - however the marketing image they wish to portray is that of the ultimate motorSPORT and not of a stage show like WWF or whatever it's called these days.

One of the most, if not the most, marketable aspects of F1 is the drivers themselves. Cheapen that competition and you ruin the drivers image. I remain hopeful that at some point someone important will realise that F1 is at it's best, from the fans point of view and therefore from an image and branding point of view, when it is fair and open competition between the best drivers in the best machines. Artificial manipulation of that cheapens F1 and damages the brand, both as a whole and for the antagonist drivers.

The toothless ones are the fans who pay to watch f1

F1 as a show without any fans is dead in the water - ultimately the fans are the most important and powerful people of all. That is only undermined if F1 can shift to a new brain dead audience that prefers something more akin to WWF. I hope that F1 realises before it's too late that there are already a million ways to market to the brain dead masses and that it should aim to retain it's current more sophisticated audience rather than dumb down and try to broaden it's appeal to every couch potato in the world.

[gibells]

WWE trading as F1. Somebody said it before and it sums it up perfectly.

I read Mike Lawrence's take on it (from pitpass) and for once he's nailed it. It's the dark side of the game, with far greater implications than a few no balls in cricket. It's a bloody shame that the FIA hadn't taken a stronger stance. It's truly not good enough to say everyone does it. I'm a fan, and I don't want to see any of this in F1. It's disgusting when Red Bull try to do it, it's disgusting when McLaren do it, and it's disgusting when Ferrari do it. No excuses. To me it is the very reason why the OWG needs to be recreated so that the argument that 'I'm faster than he is' holds no weight.

Unfortunately I'm of the opinion that the rule needs to stay. The SWG just have to find ways of making the rule work. Like banning radios or something as drastic as that. I understand that's radical, knowing the implications of not being able to adjust elements within the car, but to me that doesn't actually add anything to the game. And anyway that's got to be a way of reducing costs to boot.

[kalinka]

Maybe it's not a coincidence that you can't find usual sport-sponsors in F1 now. And they are the richest too. Like you have no : CocaCola,McDonald's,Pepsi. No Adidas,Nike.... They are usual sponsors in almost any sport. Even in NASCAR, other motorsports..etc..but not F1. The richest high-tech sponsors are missing too...like Microsoft,IBM,Google...In fact, F1 is loosing their richest sponsors constantly. Maybe FIA should stop and think about it. Current scandalous situations like this one for Ferrari can't help. How can you sponsor Alonso now if you think it seriously.....how can you convert it to good advertising value...you can't say it's pure racing and competitiveness that moves him up in the order. It's just one aspect of this situation that can be serious on long term. Not that I'm a big fan of these sponsors...no way...but their money would be essential now.